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washufinku


Dec 2, 2006, 4:41 PM
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Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC  (North_America: United_States: North_Carolina: Western: Laurel_Knob: Main_Face)
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A prior post states that there aren't any bolts needed on Groover, however we saw a bolted route starting from the second pitch going up and left from the crack. Anybody have any idea what route this is? What it is rated?


(This post was edited by washufinku on Dec 4, 2006, 7:08 PM)


cccman


Dec 5, 2006, 10:32 AM
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Re: [washufinku] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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This is an "illegal" route put up despite the moratorium on new routes. I believe it will be chopped.


jsj42


Dec 5, 2006, 10:36 AM
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Re: [cccman] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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Please don't chop this. It is NOT the solution. Chopping will only damage the resource further, in addition to fueling tempers and egos. There are better alternatives.


cccman


Dec 5, 2006, 10:40 AM
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Re: [jsj42] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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such as? just so you know, practically every route there was "chopped" during the rebolting effort earlier this year. New SS bolts and hangers now. We are working on filling the old holes if anyone wants to do some volunteer work.


berkly


Dec 5, 2006, 10:59 AM
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Re: [cccman] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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Forgive my ignorance but, why would you chop someones FA?

Why is there a moritorium on new routes at LK?


cccman


Dec 5, 2006, 11:09 AM
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Re: [berkly] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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The CCC board, when the cliff was purchased, enacted a new route moratorium for a variety of reasons. LK had never been open to the public and the 25 or so routes that exist were all put up on the sly, so to speak over a thirty year period. The Board thought that a "new route bonanza" would not be a good thing. Two routes were put up (or started) despite the moratorium. The Board has discussed a variety of options and spoken to the protagonists. The consensus seemed to be either remove the hangers or chop the routes until the moratorium is lifted. The reason is, if these routes are allowed to remain, what does that tell other would be first ascentionists? Come in and ignore the rules? Bad precident. There is no winner in a situation like this, only losers. If everyone would just obey the minimal rules for a while, there will soon be a new route process in place and things can proceed from there.


organic


Dec 5, 2006, 11:11 AM
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Re: [cccman] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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cccman wrote:
This is an "illegal" route put up despite the moratorium on new routes. I believe it will be chopped.

If the bolts were put up recently why chop them besides to asuage your own ego? So there was a moratorium setup by who? the park service or a bunch of people who call themselves the tyrants of NC or rather the CCC. Climbing coalition my ass. Given some of them do great things I have been to trail days to help out but people like you give the CCC a horrible name. If you are about climbing and preserving rock what good will chopping the bolts do? Are you pissed because it was not your "crew" who put them up and/or you are way too weak to climb the pitch?


caughtinside


Dec 5, 2006, 11:18 AM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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what a weird situation. so there's going to be a 'process' for putting up a FA? an application?

Given that the 30 route on the cliff all went up on the sly, it seems like pirate FAs are the local ethic. Laugh


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2006, 11:52 AM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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organic wrote:
cccman wrote:
This is an "illegal" route put up despite the moratorium on new routes. I believe it will be chopped.

If the bolts were put up recently why chop them besides to asuage your own ego? So there was a moratorium setup by who? the park service or a bunch of people who call themselves the tyrants of NC or rather the CCC. Climbing coalition my ass. Given some of them do great things I have been to trail days to help out but people like you give the CCC a horrible name. If you are about climbing and preserving rock what good will chopping the bolts do? Are you pissed because it was not your "crew" who put them up and/or you are way too weak to climb the pitch?

This was discussed civilly and a solution acheived via diplomacy between the CCC and the folks who did the new routing. The new route moratorium, itself has been in place since the moment the loan closed, and everybody but a few individuals has been abiding by it, because we all -- including the people who poached two new lines -- accept that it's a necessary evil. Tim Fisher put it well when he wrote, "Lots of us want to get at some more FAs at Laurel. The rest of us kept our greed in check though."

And, just as an aside, cccman is the person most responsible for everything the CCC has accomplished over the last few years. It's a list that includes, arguably, the single most significant crag purchase in the US by climbers, the massive rebolting of Stone Mountain, the re-opening of Ashboro Boulders, the state's aquisition of Rumbling bald for the new Hickory Nut Gorge State Park and much, much more. Instead of caling him a tyrant, try thanking him.

And if you won't do even that small thing, then at least realize that when you so derisively call his "crew" out, you're talking about an awful lot of people.


cccman


Dec 5, 2006, 11:53 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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Yes, it will be a simple application. We ask that an applicant climb a number of Laurel routes first to get a feel for the place. Since it was never open, not that many folks have climbed at LK and it is rather unique. We will ask about their experience and their proposed line. We require SS bolts of at least 3/8ths diameter, etc. Pretty simple stuff.
Indeed pirate FA's have been a staple in the region for years. Now however, we are land managers as well as climbers. Our neighbors, investors and contributors deserve a well managed, near pristine climbing area. The management plan is designed to do just that. Tyrants? Hardly. Good stewards? Certainly.


ja1484


Dec 5, 2006, 12:02 PM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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Guys, this is a fairly straightforward situation.


Firstly, the CCC went to the trouble of raising the funds to purchase Laurel Knob and the access trail, so technically THEY own the cliff. They're being generous in allowing the rest of us ("the public") to climb on it free of charge. They have essentially opened it to access. This type of cooperative initiative by climbers is the *only* way access will be maintained to a lot of rocks eventually. Every time the Dean Potters of the world pull a Delicate Arch, the powers that be (NPS in particular) get more and more sketchy about access. It's risky enough they allow this potentially lethal and potentially litigous (frivolous, stupid, doomed lawsuits, but that won't stop some from trying...) activity, but now those that they are going to the trouble of providing for won't even respect their rules. You wonder why access has been steadily shrinking for the past few decades? Wanna know why the vast majority of Hueco is closed to climbers? I digress.

So if they want a new route moratorium until they decide on a process for FAs of the face, then by frickin' God respect it for a little while! It's a small price to pay for public access to what may well become one of the East Coast's best climbing resources!

Have some patience...new routes will be FA'd eventually, and I'm more than happy to have an organization willing to organize maintenance of the hardware and access trail.

Some of you need to get your perspectives straight.

Thank you, CCC, genuinely. You guys/gals have done a great thing for the climbing community and *most* of us recognize and appreciate it.


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 5, 2006, 12:08 PM)


organic


Dec 5, 2006, 12:12 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
organic wrote:
cccman wrote:
This is an "illegal" route put up despite the moratorium on new routes. I believe it will be chopped.

If the bolts were put up recently why chop them besides to asuage your own ego? So there was a moratorium setup by who? the park service or a bunch of people who call themselves the tyrants of NC or rather the CCC. Climbing coalition my ass. Given some of them do great things I have been to trail days to help out but people like you give the CCC a horrible name. If you are about climbing and preserving rock what good will chopping the bolts do? Are you pissed because it was not your "crew" who put them up and/or you are way too weak to climb the pitch?

This was discussed civilly and a solution acheived via diplomacy between the CCC and the folks who did the new routing. The new route moratorium, itself has been in place since the moment the loan closed, and everybody but a few individuals has been abiding by it, because we all -- including the people who poached two new lines -- accept that it's a necessary evil. Tim Fisher put it well when he wrote, "Lots of us want to get at some more FAs at Laurel. The rest of us kept our greed in check though."

And, just as an aside, cccman is the person most responsible for everything the CCC has accomplished over the last few years. It's a list that includes, arguably, the single most significant crag purchase in the US by climbers, the massive rebolting of Stone Mountain, the re-opening of Ashboro Boulders, the state's aquisition of Rumbling bald for the new Hickory Nut Gorge State Park and much, much more. Instead of caling him a tyrant, try thanking him.

And if you won't do even that small thing, then at least realize that when you so derisively call his "crew" out, you're talking about an awful lot of people.

I don't care, if someone acts piss poor then they act piss poor, no matter who they are or what they have done in the past.

Why is the moratorium a necesary evil? Just so things are bolted properly?


caughtinside


Dec 5, 2006, 12:19 PM
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Re: [ja1484] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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ja1484 wrote:

Firstly, the CCC went to the trouble of raising the funds to purchase Laurel Knob and the access trail, so technically THEY own the cliff. They're being generous in allowing the rest of us ("the public") to climb on it free of charge.

well, yes and no. First, let me say that it sounds like they've done a lot of work, and a hell of a job to get it open.

But, if they're a public benefit nonprofit, and solicited donations for the purpose of opening this crag to the public, then that's an obligation, not just generousity.

but good on 'em for the hard work and the fundraising!


norskagent


Dec 5, 2006, 12:22 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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word is there will be a new route name approval committee also.


jsj42


Dec 5, 2006, 12:34 PM
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Re: [norskagent] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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I'm fully in support of having a bolting moratorium so long as there is a representative slice of the local climbing community with the power to review and approve new route applications. The exact same thing has been in place at Eldorado Canyon for years. However, I'm just saying that going out and chopping the bolts is NOT the solution. Just look at what happens in Colorado and California... and I thought Southeastern Climbers were "above all that." *Sigh*. Egos.


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2006, 12:42 PM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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organic wrote:
j_ung wrote:
organic wrote:
cccman wrote:
This is an "illegal" route put up despite the moratorium on new routes. I believe it will be chopped.

If the bolts were put up recently why chop them besides to asuage your own ego? So there was a moratorium setup by who? the park service or a bunch of people who call themselves the tyrants of NC or rather the CCC. Climbing coalition my ass. Given some of them do great things I have been to trail days to help out but people like you give the CCC a horrible name. If you are about climbing and preserving rock what good will chopping the bolts do? Are you pissed because it was not your "crew" who put them up and/or you are way too weak to climb the pitch?

This was discussed civilly and a solution acheived via diplomacy between the CCC and the folks who did the new routing. The new route moratorium, itself has been in place since the moment the loan closed, and everybody but a few individuals has been abiding by it, because we all -- including the people who poached two new lines -- accept that it's a necessary evil. Tim Fisher put it well when he wrote, "Lots of us want to get at some more FAs at Laurel. The rest of us kept our greed in check though."

And, just as an aside, cccman is the person most responsible for everything the CCC has accomplished over the last few years. It's a list that includes, arguably, the single most significant crag purchase in the US by climbers, the massive rebolting of Stone Mountain, the re-opening of Ashboro Boulders, the state's aquisition of Rumbling bald for the new Hickory Nut Gorge State Park and much, much more. Instead of caling him a tyrant, try thanking him.

And if you won't do even that small thing, then at least realize that when you so derisively call his "crew" out, you're talking about an awful lot of people.

I don't care, if someone acts piss poor then they act piss poor, no matter who they are or what they have done in the past.

Carolina climbers are growing a strong tradition of consensus building and cooperation, and LK is a prime example of it. Your impression seems to be that very few people are deciding what's right for all of us, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not saying everybody agrees, but those who don't are arguing their points like adults, and even they admit that protecting the very limited resource from a flood of unchecked development is paramount. The really good news is that, if you want a voice in in LK's management, it's not too late. Much of it is being discussed right now.

http://www.carolinaclimbers.org/...2/viewforum.php?f=15

cccman = SeanCobourn

Edit: I'm mistaken. The public comment period ended 11/30.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Dec 5, 2006, 12:49 PM)


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2006, 12:44 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
But, if they're a public benefit nonprofit, and solicited donations for the purpose of opening this crag to the public, then that's an obligation, not just generousity.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single CCC Board member who disagrees with that.


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2006, 12:47 PM
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Re: [jsj42] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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jsj42 wrote:
and I thought Southeastern Climbers were "above all that." *Sigh*. Egos.

I'm not saying I agree with chopping anything, because I don't. But the reasoning behind it is not ego. Check out the link above.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Dec 5, 2006, 12:47 PM)


forkliftdaddy


Dec 5, 2006, 1:22 PM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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organic, the moratorium was needed so the owners of the cliff, the CCC (or, more accurately, those entrusted with the management of the CCC), could establish the ground (up) rules for its usage. These rules are codified in the management plan and cover more than bolt placement. The LK situation is complicated by many factors. Anyway, a time out was essential to give the CCC time to prepare a draft of that plan and then open the floor for comments. The debate on the CCC site was mostly intelligent and often spirited. A bolt war is what the moratorium and the management plan seek to avoid. Publishing rules makes it perfectly clear to everyone what will and won't allowed and should ward off individually executed bolt wars.

Seems to me that the folks acting "piss poor" are the folks that didn't respect the owners' request, that then agreed to strip their routes, but haven't done so.


forkliftdaddy


Dec 5, 2006, 1:34 PM
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Re: [jsj42] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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jsj42, I don't know what part of the southeast you're idealizing. Hell, dumbass bolt placements and the resultant chopping sprees have been perfected here in the southeast. You gotta do something at night when the 'possum's outta season. You western folk might think you've got the market cornered on egocentric stupidity, but....

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, I think the routes should be removed if the violators won't do what they promised and remove their bolt hangers. And the removal doesn't have to be unsightly.


ja1484


Dec 5, 2006, 2:03 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
well, yes and no. First, let me say that it sounds like they've done a lot of work, and a hell of a job to get it open.

But, if they're a public benefit nonprofit, and solicited donations for the purpose of opening this crag to the public, then that's an obligation, not just generousity.

but good on 'em for the hard work and the fundraising!


True, but no one ever said they had to found the organization or put in the work to run it either.

I agree though - more obligation than anything, but I appreciate the effort.


organic


Dec 5, 2006, 11:43 PM
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Re: [cccman] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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So someone decided to send me hate mail because they thought it would be kind. Another CCC member of course, since posting a PM received is considered bad form. I will just post my reply. First though have people actually read the CCC LK forum? CCC members bringing up monetary donations as a reason to have a valid opinion? wow:

[quote="me"]
yes I am a member of the CCC... I actually paid my dues when I first moved here about 4 months ago and have yet to receive a response from anyone. Ya'll are probably busy bickering about the bolt wars.

I have been climbing around here for the past two years or so and might be around here for a bit. All I ever hear in NC is bickering and propoganda about how great the CCC is and people acting like you. So good job adding to the stereotype. I am not the only person who feels this way and the other people who feel this way are not just students...
There are so many bad vibes in NC, locals not wanting guidebooks, lack of information on everything. A strong ethic of placing fixed pins in bolted areas. I am a scientist and none of these things make logical sense to me. "Let us preserve our resources by chopping bolts, because it is against the rules 20 of us decided upon." How does that make logical sense to anyone?
Honestly I could care less about LK and everyones pissing match about what should be bolted. It is the attitude of the community that sucks. There is no attempt to unify climbers, there is only an attempt to make an US and a THEM.
People threaten, they do not address concerns. People recruit, they don't make friends. This is all new to me, the climbing area I came from in Southern Illinois developers spent time with the younger generation, taught us things and chopping in any form was looked down upon greatly.
Someday you people will understand that climbing is about freedom and respect and enjoying the things we have. Not tyrannical rules by a few who have appointed themselves rulers elected by fellow rulers, over a crag bought by donations.
I was at the trail day at Moore's Wall a few months ago, if you were there you might have seen me. I only moved here a month or two before that, but have climbed at Moore's before I moved here and do so now about every other weekend. I did not show up to show face, nor did anyone really ask my name. I showed up because I enjoy the crag and appreciate it. I take care of things I appreciate, I don't argue about it or bicker or chop bolts. I take care of it. Chopping bolts may be your appreciation but again it does not make any sense to me.


saxfiend


Dec 6, 2006, 3:41 AM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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organic wrote:
First though have people actually read the CCC LK forum? CCC members bringing up monetary donations as a reason to have a valid opinion? wow:
Yeah, well, I found out firsthand that being a member and contributor to the Laurel Knob purchase doesn't entitle you to disagree with the official CCC position.

JL


cccman


Dec 6, 2006, 10:22 AM
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Re: [saxfiend] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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Good news. Turns out the mystery bolts near Groover may PRE-DATE the moratorium and should therefore be left alone. We do look into these things before taking action, but sometimes speak sooner than we should.


Partner j_ung


Dec 6, 2006, 11:31 AM
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Re: [organic] Groover bolts, Laurel Knob, NC [In reply to]
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organic wrote:
So someone decided to send me hate mail because they thought it would be kind.

:roll: Swell. Please understand, he or she doesn't speak for the rest of us.

organic wrote:
It is the attitude of the community that sucks. There is no attempt to unify climbers, there is only an attempt to make an US and a THEM. People threaten, they do not address concerns. People recruit, they don't make friends.

Honestly, I haven't found this to be the case at all. I'm left wondering if your own attitude isn't at least partially the reason for it. More than once on this site, I've come away with the feeling that you tend to toss insults to people you've never met and who haven't spoken a single word to you. Any disagreement with you at all seems likely to bring it out. Without justifying hate mail, perhaps if hadn't opened with, "if the bolts were put up recently why chop them besides to asuage your own ego?" things might have gone differently.

organic wrote:
Someday you people will understand that climbing is about freedom and respect and enjoying the things we have.

There it is again, that self-righteous attitude. "Someday you people will realize"? That comes off as though you believe you've acheived a level of enlightenment about which the rest of us have only dreamed. So, climbing is about freedom, respect and enjoying the things we have, is it? Have you considered that perhaps climbing is about many things to many people, and that maybe some of those things include stewardship of the land and respect for the resource we all use?

organic wrote:
Not tyrannical rules by a few who have appointed themselves rulers elected by fellow rulers, over a crag bought by donations.


Nobody appointed the CCC Board. Those who wanted to voted. If you had a better choice, you should have brought it up when cccman stepped down as President. But then, you don't pay attention. If you did, the very issue you're pissed about wouldn't have surprised you here yesterday, even though it happened on the CCC site weekes ago.

So, your opinion... don't chop the bolts, right? I happen to agree with it. I also agree with you that the amount of $$ you donated to LK should not determine whether you have a voice in its management... and I donated way more than my fair share. But I also don't think anybody who communicates like you do should be given as much of a voice as those who act their age.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Dec 6, 2006, 11:34 AM)

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