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bagre_rei
Dec 18, 2006, 12:42 PM
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jimdavis wrote: Some people like to teather themselves to their partner with a cordelette or a few long slings. Whether you do or not shouldn't matter much, I've done it both ways and haven't had a problem with it either way.
I beg to differ..., or better, to ask for clarification.
I did simul rapping with a professional guide just one time (so, almost no experience) and he insisted that keeping tied to each other was a key safety measure. For me it makes a lot of sense.
Any sh*t happening with one climber will not unload the rope.
The other safety measures are the ones youŽll need in regular rappels, like friction backup knots, tying ropeŽs ends, etc...
So, in this case I donŽt think that tying to each other is irrelevant.
Care to talk about?
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chh
Dec 18, 2006, 2:44 PM
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hmmm. I could see tethering to one another in a guide/client situation, especially if the client had very little rappelling experience. Otherwise I can't see how this would increase the safety margin, provided you were both using prussic backups, staying close enough to communicate, etc.
I think the OP's question was answered fairly well early on though. I've used my atc to simulrap an had no problems with the friction on a 10.2. Can't say anything about ropes of skinnier diameters. A prussic and/or glove will make your life safer and more comfortable if you are rapping more than a few pitches. Also good advice about threading the rope through the bottom anchor, or otherwise tethering it somehow before pulling through the top anchor. Getting the weight transferred on the anchor takes a little bit of concentration, but it isn't all that difficult. I think using a prussic backup here will also help you to avoid the whole dropping your partner scenario because once you get to the anchor there is one more step to help you remember there is still weight on the line.
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j_ung
Dec 18, 2006, 3:20 PM
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I do it all the time. It's perfectly safe if you take a few simple precautions, and safer than rapping one at a time in a more than one situation I can imagine.
1. Tie knots in the ends of both ropes.
2. Both partners use either an auto-locking device or have an autoblock back-up. (Both partners do not need to have the same device.) If you're not using an autolocker and you're worried about not having enough control over the descent, add an extra biner under the device to increase friction.
3. Communicate your intentions clearly to weight and unweight the system, especially when leaving and arriving at anchors.
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cchildre
Dec 18, 2006, 4:09 PM
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Some things to consider.
Using two ropes?
Consider taking one 70m. During the rap, the longer raps are nice, but you also are laying out a lot more rope that could get lodged when you pull it. A 70 takes the knot out of the equation as well as not having to drag up a 2nd rope. Your group might rap together on two though?
Gri?
Advise against using the ATC for simu-rap is unfounded. You belay with the thing, on a single strand, so you can simu-rap with it. While the Gri is great, it is not a lock, and should be backed up accordingly. Thinking that you can just let go and it will stop you is just asking for an accident. Keep your brake hand on at all times.
Teathering together?
During windy situations, rope strands can get stuck off your rap line and you might need to pendi off to one side to dislodge the rope. Rather difficult with two guys tied together. Just stick close and communicate.
Safety of a Simu-rap?
I think so long as you pay attention to what your doing and you have bomber anchors to rap off. There is no better way to get off the rock. Saving so much time. Just double check everything and communicate.
My experience. Climbing Wolf Will Survive, and it got dark before the final pitch, so we backed off. Another group of six rapping Estrellita. The time it took to climb the three pitches of WWS and subsquently rap all the way back down, the Estrellita group had managed to rap down a single pitch. Have fun, climb safe, and take your headlamps.
Simu-rap is the way to go for sure.
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 18, 2006, 4:31 PM
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Jung, How is simo rapping safer?? I have done it before but prefer not to. Twice the load on the system and twice the chance of something going wrong. Especialy would not want to do it in the dark. I have rapped off some pretty big climbs in the dark and prefer to be methodical and safe than fast and dead.
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rgold
Dec 18, 2006, 5:02 PM
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The results of a simul-rapping failure are such that you won't be hearing much from people for whom it hasn't worked, so I'd view the favorable opinions as coming from a pretty biased sample.
You are adding additional danger points to an activity which is already terminally unforgiving of small mistakes. We hear its fine "as long as..." and then comes a list of things you better not screw up. Don't forget that you are adding a new bunch of items to the already-existing list of things you better not screw up. New ways to get the chop.
For how much gain?
I suspect most of the time taken in rappelling is used up at the anchors. The actual descending part of a 30 meter rappel takes perhaps a minute and a half. Thus the time actually spend descending 20 rappels is about 30 minutes per person, and so the conventional rapping pair gets down about a half an hour later. Maybe a bit less than that if the simul-rapping pair takes additional time for their precautions. For ten rappels we're talking about a fifteen minute gain in arrival time.
I think it is worth asking whether arriving at the ground fifteen or thirty minutes earlier is worth the additional risk of a much more rapid arrival at the ground. In most cases, including many that involve the onset of darkness, my answer would still be no.
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 5:03 PM
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After reading all of this it seems grigri's are the way to go with knots tied in the ends of the ropes of course. Don't let go of those brake hands either! Speed is our goal, we want to get up and down in one day. I love all of you!!
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 5:07 PM
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Good points rgold, now you are really f-ing with my head. I wasn't planning on simul-rapping all 23 pitches anyway. Ones that are traversing are probably better to do alone. And you are right most time is spent at the anchors. We will just have to see how fast we intially climb up the route and then I guess determine what we want to do. We will obviously go practice this technique on our recon/beta gathering day anyway. We have headlamps and are going to bring jackets etc., so we should be prepared for whatever goes down.
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 18, 2006, 5:44 PM
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If you are planing on switching up between simo and standard rap that is just one more chance to screw up. Remember that at the end of a long day you are often fried mentaly. perfect time to zip off the end of the rope and say oh $shit!! I though we were simo rapping this pitch. Simo rapping is the last thing I would do on the tail end of a stressfull big climb. But that is just me. do whatever you want....
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lightrack
Dec 18, 2006, 6:05 PM
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a saftey benifit of the simu-rap if climbing w/ a noob is you can fireman the simu-team on the raps by holding their rope from below aswell.
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 6:13 PM
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No noobs on a 23 pitch climb with a 12a crux at the 21st pitch.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 6:16 PM
Post #37 of 61
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lightrack wrote: a saftey benifit of the simu-rap if climbing w/ a noob is you can fireman the simu-team on the raps by holding their rope from below aswell.
I see
first have 1 dude rap so he could hold both ends then let the other two do combat turbo rap.I am such a n00b, how come i did not think of this.
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lightrack
Dec 18, 2006, 6:22 PM
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simu-rapping is just as safe as a normal rap. if you can send a 23 pitch .12a then a simple simurap should be no big deal. ive used the simu many times, mostly w/ experienced ppl but w/ ppl who have never rappeled before so i just hooked em' up on simu, and we rapped 3 (fireman belay) double ropes no prob...its a simple, safe, and time saving technique; youv'e even got 2 sets of eyes on every rap setup.
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lightrack
Dec 18, 2006, 6:25 PM
Post #39 of 61
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majid_sabet wrote: lightrack wrote: a saftey benifit of the simu-rap if climbing w/ a noob is you can fireman the simu-team on the raps by holding their rope from below aswell. I see first have 1 dude rap so he could hold both ends then let the other two do combat turbo rap.I am such a n00b, how come i did not think of this.
sorry, let me clarify,
when simu rapping i go 4 feet below my partner, and hold both his line and mine, we go at a normal pace and if he lets go i have his brake line.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 6:36 PM
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lightrack wrote: majid_sabet wrote: lightrack wrote: a saftey benifit of the simu-rap if climbing w/ a noob is you can fireman the simu-team on the raps by holding their rope from below aswell. I see first have 1 dude rap so he could hold both ends then let the other two do combat turbo rap.I am such a n00b, how come i did not think of this. sorry, let me clarify, when simu rapping i go 4 feet below my partner, and hold both his line and mine, we go at a normal pace and if he lets go i have his brake line.
I see, so your parner has 2 ropes cause you said you are holding both his line, and yours ,assuming you got 1 line. so your both hands are busy holding few rops but then, how do you rap and where is the third hand or may be your partner is using his hand to lower your rap ? I am confused.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 18, 2006, 6:39 PM)
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erin
Dec 18, 2006, 6:42 PM
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stevej wrote: I would not recommend ATC, because you will not have enough friction, escpecially since you will be going on just one strand, and as you get toward the end of the rope, it will be very hard to hold the brake end. Grigris are awesome for this cause you can just let go and relax if it starts getting hot.
We simul rap c ATC's all the time. The rather obvious solution to the problem you stated is to use a autoblock or other friction knot. Then you can let go of the brake end if need be. I usually keep one hand on the autoblock as we rap, and this keeps my hand from feeling rope burn as we move quickly down the rope.
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lightrack
Dec 18, 2006, 6:50 PM
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i havnt been on the rc mania for awhile now, forgot how it worked....
simu rapping is two ppl on a normal rap setup. (one rope, or two tied together). the difference is one person per side of the anchor, ie a counterwieght. each person just has one rope running through their belay. (atc is the way to go) So that the team doesnt want crash into each other on the way down it is preffered that one person is slightly lower than the other durring the rap; since i ussally go below, i have the chance to use the fireman on my scetchy partners side aswell, my rope in my right hand, her rope in my left, and that same rope in her right hand (though she is four or five feet above me)
everything is a normal simu rap set; only difference is ive got my hands on both ropes...ie the FIREMAN
hope this helps,
if not the 3 rope triple simu might be the way to go.
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jrzacher
Dec 18, 2006, 6:55 PM
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I always thought it was a good idea to take a long length of sling and clip it securley to a climber, and then clip it to the scnd climber. That way you have some back up. and keeps you level .
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 7:01 PM
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lightrack wrote: i havnt been on the rc mania for awhile now, forgot how it worked.... if not the 3 rope triple simu might be the way to go.
I feel safer with three rope system cause this way you always got some extra rope in case some thing happens. thanks, i want to try this with one of friends from gym, may be do it this weekend and let you know.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 18, 2006, 7:01 PM)
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j_ung
Dec 18, 2006, 7:13 PM
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rgold wrote: You are adding additional danger points to an activity which is already terminally unforgiving of small mistakes. We hear its fine "as long as..." and then comes a list of things you better not screw up. Don't forget that you are adding a new bunch of items to the already-existing list of things you better not screw up. New ways to get the chop. For how much gain?
IMO, in less than optimal conditions -- windy, rainy, cold, dehydrated, injured-but-conscious partner -- or any other time when communication is imperative and yet not a foregone conclusion, keeping the partners together has substantial value. Aren't those conditions that often contribute to the too-common rap accidents to which you're referring? These are the times I alluded to above, in which I think simulrapping may actually be safer than solo. If you accept that such a situation exists, then I think you also have to accept that practicing it under optimal conditions may have some merit.
I can think one time in which my wife and I were rapping from Chrimson Chrysalis in RR, a notorious rope eater. I won't get into the details how, unless you really want me to, but I managed to get the rope stuck about thirty feet under me. I was at the anchor below, she was at the one above and I was unable to give her slack to hook up her device. I was also unable to communicate with her due to high winds and drizzle. And we couldn't see each other. The weather was obviously in a downward spiral and it took me some time to get down to free the rope. The whole time I had trouble concentrating -- all I could think of was my wife alone and confused, not knowing what was happening and unable to get down to me to find out. It was one of the most terrifying moments in my climbing life. Had we been simulrapping to eliminate the communication problem from the get go, we would have avoided a lot of terror. Luckily, neither us compunded the situation by committing further errors.
We simulrapped the rest of the way down and made it back to the car just as the weather completely let go on us. That was the night 80 mph winds and heavy rain destroyed the tent city at the Red Rock Rendezvous.
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j_ung
Dec 18, 2006, 7:17 PM
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j_ung wrote: I do it all the time. It's perfectly safe if you take a few simple precautions, and safer than rapping one at a time in a more than one situation I can imagine. 1. Tie knots in the ends of both ropes. 2. Both partners use either an auto-locking device or have an autoblock back-up. (Both partners do not need to have the same device.) If you're not using an autolocker and you're worried about not having enough control over the descent, add an extra biner under the device to increase friction. 3. Communicate your intentions clearly to weight and unweight the system, especially when leaving and arriving at anchors.
I also want to add that, in so far as the as-long-as-you list above is concerned, only the third is something I don't normally do when rappelling solo. So, I'm really only adding additional communication to the system -- communication that occurs when the two partners are right next to each other, not separated by a rope length.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 8:12 PM
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j_ung wrote: j_ung wrote: I do it all the time. It's perfectly safe if you take a few simple precautions, and safer than rapping one at a time in a more than one situation I can imagine. 1. Tie knots in the ends of both ropes. 2. Both partners use either an auto-locking device or have an autoblock back-up. (Both partners do not need to have the same device.) If you're not using an autolocker and you're worried about not having enough control over the descent, add an extra biner under the device to increase friction. 3. Communicate your intentions clearly to weight and unweight the system, especially when leaving and arriving at anchors. I also want to add that, in so far as the as-long-as-you list above is concerned, only the third is something I don't normally do when rappelling solo. So, I'm really only adding additional communication to the system -- communication that occurs when the two partners are right next to each other, not separated by a rope length.
Touching The Void Part II
By director j_ung
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sspssp
Dec 18, 2006, 9:16 PM
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rgold wrote: For how much gain? I suspect most of the time taken in rappelling is used up at the anchors. The actual descending part of a 30 meter rappel takes perhaps a minute and a half. Thus the time actually spend descending 20 rappels is about 30 minutes per person
It would be interesting to time, but I would guess most 30 meter raps take more than 90 seconds.
If you are doing a two rope rap, then you could be rapping up to 60 meters which is would take a longer rap (although longer at the anchor also).
However, going with the 90 second 30 meter rap...
A 30 meter rap might take 90 seconds after both strands are hanging free and clean. You might be able to toss the ropes and end up with clean strands rapping a slab [that has no features]. However, I would say it is very rare that the first one down can make it in 90 seconds because of dealing with the strands on the way down.
So the real question is: can two people simul-rapping manage/clean the rope quicker than one alone. With practice, I think they can.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Dec 18, 2006, 9:18 PM)
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yokese
Dec 18, 2006, 9:39 PM
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I'm not gonna get into the simul rappel vs. regular rappel debate. I agree that the former, if well performed, has two advantages: speed and keeping the climbers close (even connected). However, for the OP, if you haven't practiced simul-rappelling before, I'd say that 20-something pitches high up, being tired after a long and hard climbing, might not be the best place to find out that the thing may be more complicated than expected.... practice before at your local crag.
By the way, how many of you actually say "rapping" instead of "rappelling" (innocent question. Being a non-native english speaker the word "rapping" means something totally different to me).
(This post was edited by yokese on Dec 18, 2006, 9:41 PM)
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