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tradtimbo
Dec 26, 2006, 11:06 PM
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So I got in discussion with some family this christmas about the safety of climbing compared to driving. Nobody else at the table has even tried climbing before. I kept highlighting the fact that when your driving you can't control others on the road, but when your climbing, everything is in your hands (in a reasonable sense of course...ie. not counting rockfall, lightning, etc.). I also speculated that if your an experienced trad climber, on a generally well protected route, your climbing at a relatively moderate level, and your belayer has a good eye on you, your more likely to die on the WAY to the crag in your car, than actually climbing up it. I was wondering if anyone actually knows any stats on this. personally, i feel safer a few pitches up on a route than in my car on the highway....
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coastal_climber
Dec 26, 2006, 11:56 PM
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I've heard of this, and agree. On the way to the crags, I always wonder: "am I gonna make it there? or is some idiot going to hit me".
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OverspeedCowboy
Dec 26, 2006, 11:56 PM
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I found Mountaineering to be 51 per 100,000 people
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=678080
I found another source for just rock climbing that was 3.2 deaths per 100,000
Auto death rate in 1996 is 16.5 per 100,000
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/1motorac.html
(This post was edited by OverspeedCowboy on Dec 27, 2006, 12:08 AM)
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geezergecko
Dec 27, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Thanks to OverspeedCowboy for the stats. I recall coming across similar numbers, years ago. The conclusion I drew from it was that driving a car was wayyy more dangerous than what is generally assumed. As for being in control, that microwave size rock that decides to tumble your way can ruin your day as badly as that drunk driving towards you.
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gargrantuan
Dec 27, 2006, 1:46 AM
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tradtimbo wrote: a generally well protected route, your climbing at a relatively moderate level,
why don't you just sport climb instead?
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climbingnurse
Dec 27, 2006, 2:17 AM
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I'm an ER nurse in Denver. In the last year and a half I have treated one climbing accident and it was a broken tib/fib that occurred bouldering in a gym. I see considerably more skiing/boarding accidents, but most of the people I treat were not involved in sports of any kind. They were either in an auto accident or simply sick (non-trauma).
It is my belief that sitting at home on the couch is far more dangerous in the long run. The vast majority of my patients are sick specifically because they have done that for far too long.
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kimgraves
Dec 27, 2006, 2:56 AM
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How dangerous is driving? It is THE most dangerous thing most of us do. Almost everyone will be in a serious accident sometime in there lives. Masha's kid had been in 3 and she's only 30. And it's not that she's a bad driver. I've been in one - I was stopped at a stop sign and someone Front ended me!
After 9/11 Masha wanted to move out of NYC. We thought about it a while - even looked for a house - and then I realized that all those extra miles we would need to drive were realistically MUCH more dangerous than the almost non-existent chance of being killed in a terrorist attack. Living in NY, I only have to drive 6000 miles a year. Many people, out in the "country", drive 40K or more.
There is a real culture of safety in climbing that doesn't exist in driving.
Best Kim
(This post was edited by kimgraves on Dec 27, 2006, 2:57 AM)
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mrpotter
Dec 27, 2006, 3:11 AM
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not to hijack, but how does climbing compare to other extreme sports? Someone mentioned skiing, but what about mtb biking, skateboarding, watersports, etc?
My guess would be that climbing has more potential for big injury/death, but a lot fewer cases
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tradtimbo
Dec 27, 2006, 3:49 AM
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gargrantuan wrote: tradtimbo wrote: a generally well protected route, your climbing at a relatively moderate level, why don't you just sport climb instead?
I climb both trad and sport. and what you quoted me on is something to be used in comparison. a point to measure from. I never said its how I climb.
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robdotcalm
Dec 27, 2006, 3:57 AM
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tradtimbo wrote: So I got in discussion with some family this christmas about the safety of climbing compared to driving. Nobody else at the table has even tried climbing before. I kept highlighting the fact that when your driving you can't control others on the road, but when your climbing, everything is in your hands (in a reasonable sense of course...ie. not counting rockfall, lightning, etc.). I also speculated that if your an experienced trad climber, on a generally well protected route, your climbing at a relatively moderate level, and your belayer has a good eye on you, your more likely to die on the WAY to the crag in your car, than actually climbing up it. I was wondering if anyone actually knows any stats on this. personally, i feel safer a few pitches up on a route than in my car on the highway....
If what you say is true, then climbing is still dangerous for most people since it involves their driving long distances to climb.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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robdotcalm
Dec 27, 2006, 3:59 AM
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climbingnurse wrote: I'm an ER nurse in Denver. In the last year and a half I have treated one climbing accident and it was a broken tib/fib that occurred bouldering in a gym. I see considerably more skiing/boarding accidents, but most of the people I treat were not involved in sports of any kind. They were either in an auto accident or simply sick (non-trauma). It is my belief that sitting at home on the couch is far more dangerous in the long run. The vast majority of my patients are sick specifically because they have done that for far too long.
It's difficult to conclude anything about the risk of the activities per participant, since, even in Colorado, it is my observation that far more people ski/board than rock climb, and far more people vegetate on the couch then ski.
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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exposeur
Dec 27, 2006, 4:32 AM
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well, allow me to play the devil's advocate for a moment and say that climbing could still be considered more dangerous because an individual who climbs will only spend a very small percentage of their time actually on the rock, whereas people inevitably spend a lot more time behind the wheel. the statistics mentioned earlier are on overall mortality rates, not death rate with respect to time. so per hour in the car is less dangerous than per hour on the rock, for example. know what i mean?
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cosmostarr
Dec 27, 2006, 5:27 AM
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driving scares me
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exposeur
Dec 27, 2006, 5:34 AM
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yeah me too
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pro_alien
Dec 27, 2006, 7:50 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: If what you say is true, then climbing is still dangerous for most people since it involves their driving long distances to climb.
The long distances are not so bad - highways outside towns are usually much safer per mile driven. The problem is driving back home while tired.
Pascal
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vertical_planar
Dec 27, 2006, 12:34 PM
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OverspeedCowboy wrote: I found Mountaineering to be 51 per 100,000 people http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=678080 I found another source for just rock climbing that was 3.2 deaths per 100,000 Auto death rate in 1996 is 16.5 per 100,000 http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/1motorac.html
Good figures but you ll need more information to make even the most loosely conclusions. People do not climb as often as they drive and when they do the act of driving takes much longer than climbing. My opinion is that climbing is more dangerous...
Just imagine millions of people hitting the crags every morning or after partying all night...Not to speak of grannies as belayers...
(This post was edited by vertical_planar on Dec 27, 2006, 12:37 PM)
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br
Dec 27, 2006, 2:24 PM
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Climbing is just so out of the main stream that people assume that it's an activity for people who are reckless and are basically just asking for it. Yet people will not think twice about driving a car, going hunting, going for a swim in a large body of water, or whatever. When these people get killed it's a tragedy, when a climber gets killed, well hell that guy was just asking for it.
I have gotten questioned by so many non climbers since the Mount Hood incident. They say you don't do that type of climbing do you. I say no as my mind flashes back to a day lashed to a wall in the Valley. They say good, those guys were really asking for it, and go on and on about screw those guys they were doing something completly reckless they don't deserve a rescue.
Well anyway I'm just ranting now. My point is climbing is so out of the mainstream and people are just so damn self righteous, completely ignorant, or just so satified with there subdivision/stripmall life that anything like climbing seems absolutely unnessasary and reckless.
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dynosore
Dec 27, 2006, 3:17 PM
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Driving is dangerous, and I've been in 2 bad accidents (neither my fault).
However, if you are going to put conditions on it
In reply to: I also speculated that if your an experienced trad climber, on a generally well protected route, your climbing at a relatively moderate level, and your belayer has a good eye on you, your more likely to die on the WAY to the crag in your car, than actually climbing up it.
you have to do the same with driving. If you stay sober, obey the speed limint, wear your seatbelt, etc., I'd say you're more likely to die climbing on a time weighted basis. Oops in a car is often survivable. Oops I rapelled off the end of my rope usually isn't.
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keinangst
Dec 27, 2006, 3:21 PM
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I personally take as much precaution with my vehicle as I do with my climbing gear. I'm probably in that 1% range, the guy who checks tire pressure and replaces suspensions every 80k miles, changes out ball joints when they're worn, etc. It's scary to think how many people are driving "reliable" cars that are on the verge of a catastrophic mechanical issue at all times.
But the kicker is this: Driving is all but essential for most Americans, while climbing is a completely optional pursuit. Most people can accept the fact that you had an accident on your way to work, but climbing accidents are the metaphorical "smashing your Ferrari into a tree while doing 150mph down a back road". Completely unneccessary, harder to swallow. My $0.02.
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cchildre
Dec 27, 2006, 3:57 PM
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Well to this I would like to point out some things.
The perception is that climbing is so dangerous, as it is with flying on an airplane. What must be realized is that with both, an accident related to either one will typically result in a fatality. Opposed to driving where accidents occur all the time and are more often than not minor. I think the unforgiving nature of what we do is what makes it seem so dangerous.
Upwards of 95% (I don't have exact number here) of accidents climbing occur because the climber screwed something up. So your in control. Driving is dependent on everyone else.
Lastly, Sport Climbing safer? I trust a cam or nut that I myself just placed myself, far more than a bolt put in by who knows. Well, more on point, I know how much I can trust it, based on the quality of placement. How many whippers has that bolt held? It could blow when you least expect it. Also, the quality of rock the bolt is in does speak to it's durability. Since one sunk into limestone or sandstone will be inherently more questionable than one in solid granite.
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skurdeycat
Dec 27, 2006, 4:30 PM
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Its always going to be hard to find equivalent statistics, but consider this, have you ever heard of a climber who was killed in an car accident on the way to climb? Me neither.
OK, so sampling error applies, we hear about almost every climber killed climbing, but unless they are famous, we won't hear about any killed in a car crash, wherever they were going.
So, does anyone out there know of ANY climber killed while driving to climb, say in the last 10 years. Be broad, this can include any trip in which climbing was any part of the activity. By climber, I'd include anyone who owned any of their own climbing gear.
I'm willing to bet the numbers of replies will be much smaller than the number of climbing deaths we know about. Will that stop you climbing? Hardly, so who cares?
Skurdey
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sspssp
Dec 27, 2006, 5:07 PM
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skurdeycat wrote: So, does anyone out there know of ANY climber killed while driving to climb, say in the last 10 years. Be broad, this can include any trip in which climbing was any part of the activity. By climber, I'd include anyone who owned any of their own climbing gear.
Barchar's partner was killed and Barchar was pretty injured in a crash.
Point taken, though.
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sspssp
Dec 27, 2006, 5:08 PM
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cchildre wrote: The perception is that climbing is so dangerous, as it is with flying on an airplane. What must be realized is that with both, an accident related to either one will typically result in a fatality.
Really? I think there are a lot of smashed of ankles for every fatility. Or is a smashed ankle not an "accident."
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kimgraves
Dec 27, 2006, 5:11 PM
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I found some stats for driving. Data from 2004
There are 1.46 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles driven. So if you drive 40K miles per year your chances of dying are 40K miles * (1.46 deaths/100,000,000 miles) = .0006 fatalities.
Smaller than I would have thought right? But that's not the only story. The per capita rate of death for driving is 14.52 deaths/100,000 population. (because we as a population drive A LOT). I seem to remember that there are around 3 million climbers. So IF the climbing death rate equaled the driving death rate there would be (14.52 deaths/100,000) * 3 million climbers = 436 deaths from climbing per year.
The 2004 Accidents in North American Mountaineering shows 18 deaths from mountaineering in the US. (Apples to apples - the driving stats were US only). This means that driving is 20 times more dangerous than climbing. Assuming the reporting is off (because of under reporting) by a factor of 5 and the real number is 100, driving is STILL four times more dangerous than climbing.
Did I do this analysis right? I leave it up to the math majors to set me straight. Note that these numbers show fatalities only, not injuries.
Of course this begs the issue - LOL: If you didn't climb at all your potential for death from climbing would be zero. Personally, I'd rather not smoke, not eat junk food, not engage in high-risk sex, not own a gun, not drink to excess (often), and not drive so much, than not climb. But that's me.
Don't forget to wear your helmet on the way to and from the crag. 
Best, Kim
(This post was edited by kimgraves on Dec 27, 2006, 5:12 PM)
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cchildre
Dec 27, 2006, 5:14 PM
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sspssp wrote: cchildre wrote: The perception is that climbing is so dangerous, as it is with flying on an airplane. What must be realized is that with both, an accident related to either one will typically result in a fatality. Really? I think there are a lot of smashed of ankles for every fatility. Or is a smashed ankle not an "accident."
Admittidly. To clarify, the perception by the public is that a climbing accident usually results in a fatality. Especially to those who do not actually climb. My thoughts did not translate quite the way I intended. Good point though.
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