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vertical_planar


Jan 8, 2007, 5:55 AM
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It it cheating?
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Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I ve heard different opinions so far. What do you think?


Partner tisar


Jan 8, 2007, 6:03 AM
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Re: [vertical_planar] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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vertical_planar wrote:
Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I ve heard different opinions so far. What do you think?

It depends (tm).

- Daniel


notapplicable


Jan 8, 2007, 6:04 AM
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Id sling it but wouldnt pull on it. Thats just me though, I dont think I would call it cheating if you did. Especialy if it would allow you to top out with some dignity and avoid belly crawling, groveling and dirt jamming to reach the rapslings.


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Jan 8, 2007, 6:29 AM
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squamish it ain't....and if you cut those trees, i'm going to kill youAngelic


bill413


Jan 8, 2007, 6:57 AM
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Re: [vertical_planar] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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vertical_planar wrote:
Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I ve heard different opinions so far. What do you think?
Yes.





It's rock climbing. If it were cliff climbing, you could use whatever was on the cliff.


ihategrigris


Jan 8, 2007, 7:21 AM
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Re: [vertical_planar] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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vertical_planar wrote:
Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I ve heard different opinions so far. What do you think?

Depends... does the tree allow you to have an easier time at the crux? Does it provide a rest that otherwise wouldn't be there? Was the route rated with the tree in mind?


Partner brent_e


Jan 8, 2007, 7:31 AM
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Re: [ihategrigris] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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there is a route at Bon Echo in ontario where the guidebook states, "then climb cedar onto lower angled slope" or something.


the route is called vertiginous


(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 8, 2007, 7:31 AM)


bent_gate


Jan 8, 2007, 7:41 AM
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vertical_planar wrote:
Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I've heard different opinions so far. What do you think?

Excellent question! I asked some various sources, and here is what I got:

Hardman 1: "You have to ask the First Ascensionist to determine if it was used on the original route. If it was not part of the first ascent then you can't use it. If you do use it, then you are climbing a variation of the route. If no one has published this variation yet, then you may take credit as the First Ascensionist of the variation and even designate your own rating for this variation."

Hardman 2: "If you pull on a tree, I better not catch you calling it Rock Climbing. But I'm okay if you call it Mountain Climbing though."

Hardman 3: "Heck no, you shouldn't be pulling or stepping on a tree. They're not for climbing. Trees are there for you to saw your rope into as you rap off it for the 50th time. Don't even think of putting up a bolted rap station or leaving fixed gear!"

Weekend Warrior: "Shrubs, are handy to pull on, but not to step on, For trees, branches that don't bend past 90 degrees are ok to both pull on and step on."

Sport Climber: "If a tree must be cut down to improve the line of the route, the remaining stump should be chipped into a usable, but natural looking hold"

Gym Climber: "Yeah right, like if you're climbing on a rock, there's gonna be a tree on there."

My personal opinion is that you should stop to hug each tree that you pass. (even despite the fact that, unbenounced to you, the tree is laughing at your feeble attempts to hold onto the rock...)


dingus


Jan 8, 2007, 8:13 AM
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You're not even supposed to look at them.

DMT


el_layclimber


Jan 8, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: Some questions regarding the notion that one must not use the tree if the first ascentionist didn't, but probably can if he did and the tree won't get me or my new-fangled devices sticky, sappy, dirty or otherwise looking like I have been outside.

I guess that this also means that if the guy who did the FA missed a short traverse to a jug, that I am not allowed to use it either, or the style police will downgrade my onsite to a vermillionpoint. Thanks for clearing that up. I will also avoid touching licheny holds or belaying from grassy ledges as I wouldn't want anyone to call me a vegetation climber, and give me a greenpoint.
BTW - I assume that we don't hold on to trees because it is gay, like fancy watches, crashpads and sporty-goo, can anyone clarify on this?


jeremy11


Jan 8, 2007, 8:37 AM
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Alcan Highway 5.6R, New River Rock - "Begin by climbing the tree next to the base of the wall as far as you desire, then step onto the rock and climb the clean streak to the top (Thompson 205)."

and right around the corner
Dab Hand 5.10b "A creation of self serving rules. Climb the face left of Purity Made without using the corner or the nearby trees (Thompson 204)."

For Alcan Highway you need to use the tree, there is no other way. Sling the tree as high as you possibly can, and hope it will prevent a groundfall, then breath a sigh of relief after you get some pro in a horizontal high on the route (yippee, I won't die now!)
Dab Hand, which I have not climbed, is said to be a "creation of self serving rules" which it elaborates to be not using the adjacent corner and trees. This tree avoidance is merely contrived difficulty akin to doing the "yellow" route in the gym. On a natural route, I use what is naturally there unless specified in the route description. This means that trees are in, but chipped holds are out.
I've been on a few routes where using dead finger sized trees and/or dirt holds to top out has been mandatory Shocked


markc


Jan 8, 2007, 8:50 AM
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Re: [vertical_planar] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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The rule of thumb I subscribe to is, "If you can hit it on the way down, it's in on the way up."

I'll avoid pulling on trees where I can, but sometimes the gymnastics involved make it an absurd activity. Some things aren't always pretty or good style (whatever that is), but they get the job done. I'm not above pulling a tree, using a knee, or the occasional beached whale when they're called for. YMMV.


stashyboy


Jan 8, 2007, 8:54 AM
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Re: [jeremy11] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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It seems like most folks agree that trees are not part of the cliff, and should not be used to achieve upward movement. The jury is still out about their use as passive protection. Another local example being a fairly run-out climb called 'J'accuse' that mentions slinging a (fairly small!) tree for first protection from ground fall. This tree is right next to the cliff but not growing out of the rock face....I see no ethical debate about using it in this fashion, I unfortunately have some recent experience with groundfall....but as for grabbing trees, or ex-trees....that's another story. Another of our local gunks climbs (Punch and Judy) has a large root ball that fills a vertical crack, and I always advise those that ask that the root ball is not 'on' as its use does make the grade considerably easier....In the final analysis, your style of climbing is your own business. As long as you are happy with your efforts at the end of the day. The trouble starts when people start comparing their own efforts to others and want a level playing field.....


dingus


Jan 8, 2007, 8:57 AM
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Re: [stashyboy] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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stashyboy wrote:
It seems like most folks agree that trees are not part of the cliff, and should not be used to achieve upward movement.

I guess most folk have not done long trad routes in Yosemite where the trees are on route and often are the sole belay anchor too.

DMT


stashyboy


Jan 8, 2007, 9:01 AM
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I never said anything about not using them as belay anchors....


skinnyclimber


Jan 8, 2007, 9:07 AM
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As long as you are following the "Leave No Trace" principal then you are climbing in good environmental style. If you pull a live tree or microshrub out you are being a poor steward of the environment. For some reason, lichen escapes this rule, you may smear on it all you like. You may climb the route however you like, but don't lie about using the tree...


caughtinside


Jan 8, 2007, 9:36 AM
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skinnyclimber wrote:
If you pull a live tree or microshrub out you are being a poor steward of the environment.

you're also cleaning the route and making it better for the next guy! Climbing grassy cracks isn't so fun.

And all you guys saying 'it's rock climbing, not tree climbing' have got it wrong. It's Traditional climbing, dammit! Whatever that means! But I am sure it includes climbing stuff that is in my way. This includes trees, and occasionally even my partner.


valygrl


Jan 8, 2007, 10:02 AM
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Dirtbag: who gives a cr*p.

====

As long as you are truthful with yourself you will know if you are cheating or not. You're not cheating anyone but yourself. Just don't LIE about it.

Usually, you can tell if you can do the move w/o the tree, by looking.

If you are really not sure, and don't think you can do the move w/o the tree, you have 2 options: 1) Just use the tree. 2) Try the move and fall until you are sick of it, and then use the tree. If someone asks you how you did on the climb, mention that you used the tree.


ihategrigris


Jan 8, 2007, 10:11 AM
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Heres one from Squamish Select:

Banana Peel, pitch 3 (5.7): stem between the slab and the tree to get past the initial steep slab, the proceed on the lower angle slab to a bolt protecting the 5.7 crux. Proceed straight up to the anchor.


Partner j_ung


Jan 8, 2007, 10:17 AM
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Re: [markc] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
The rule of thumb I subscribe to is, "If you can hit it on the way down, it's in on the way up."

Ha! I think I'll adopt this as my rule of thumb, too. Smile


notapplicable


Jan 8, 2007, 12:22 PM
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Re: [bent_gate] It it cheating? [In reply to]
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bent_gate wrote:
vertical_planar wrote:
Is it cheating to use a tree as a hold/foothold as long as its part of the natural environment that makes the route?

I've heard different opinions so far. What do you think?

Excellent question! I asked some various sources, and here is what I got:

Hardman 1: "You have to ask the First Ascensionist to determine if it was used on the original route. If it was not part of the first ascent then you can't use it. If you do use it, then you are climbing a variation of the route. If no one has published this variation yet, then you may take credit as the First Ascensionist of the variation and even designate your own rating for this variation."

Hardman 2: "If you pull on a tree, I better not catch you calling it Rock Climbing. But I'm okay if you call it Mountain Climbing though."

Hardman 3: "Heck no, you shouldn't be pulling or stepping on a tree. They're not for climbing. Trees are there for you to saw your rope into as you rap off it for the 50th time. Don't even think of putting up a bolted rap station or leaving fixed gear!"

Weekend Warrior: "Shrubs, are handy to pull on, but not to step on, For trees, branches that don't bend past 90 degrees are ok to both pull on and step on."

Sport Climber: "If a tree must be cut down to improve the line of the route, the remaining stump should be chipped into a usable, but natural looking hold"

Gym Climber: "Yeah right, like if you're climbing on a rock, there's gonna be a tree on there."

My personal opinion is that you should stop to hug each tree that you pass. (even despite the fact that, unbenounced to you, the tree is laughing at your feeble attempts to hold onto the rock...)


Brilliance, pure unadulterated brilliance.


ninja_climber


Jan 8, 2007, 12:31 PM
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If you want to do that you're on the the wrong site. I think what your looking for is www.treeclimbing.com


skinnyclimber


Jan 8, 2007, 12:36 PM
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ninja_climber wrote:
If you want to do that you're on the the wrong site. I think what your looking for is www.treeclimbing.com

And just in case you thought he was kidding:

http://www.treeclimbing.com


Adk


Jan 8, 2007, 2:23 PM
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skinnyclimber wrote:
ninja_climber wrote:
If you want to do that you're on the the wrong site. I think what your looking for is www.treeclimbing.com

And just in case you thought he was kidding:

http://www.treeclimbing.com

I can't believe you actually looked for the site. LOL
I've been known to hang from a tree with chainsaw in hand.


ninja_climber


Jan 8, 2007, 3:09 PM
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Adk wrote:
skinnyclimber wrote:
ninja_climber wrote:
If you want to do that you're on the the wrong site. I think what your looking for is www.treeclimbing.com

And just in case you thought he was kidding:

http://www.treeclimbing.com

I can't believe you actually looked for the site. LOL
I've been known to hang from a tree with chainsaw in hand.

Laugh They had a threada while ago about climbing petrified trees, and if it counted as rock climbing. Somehow that site go into the mix.

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