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collegekid


Jan 28, 2007, 10:15 PM
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venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market
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http://www.nytimes.com/...page&oref=slogin

Ironically, venture capitalists want governemnt intervention to "level the playing field" in Energy so that their investments in alternative energy play out.

Apparently the "magical hand of the free market" can't solve our global warming OR energy crisis problems.


rhaig


Jan 29, 2007, 5:56 AM
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Re: [collegekid] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/...page&oref=slogin

Ironically, venture capitalists want governemnt intervention to "level the playing field" in Energy so that their investments in alternative energy play out.

Apparently the "magical hand of the free market" can't solve our global warming OR energy crisis problems.

part of the problem with alternative energy is that many of the popular alternative sources don't pay off yet. For instance, solar energy. While there is no doubt it is cheaper to operate from solar energy, the installation costs (even when subsidized by government grants) are so high that a grid won't pay for itself for 8-10 years. And most people have problems coming up with 5 figures of install cost (after grants) and waiting 10 years for the investment to pay out.

I'm in the market for a new house. I would roll solar panels into the mortgage if it would pay off in 5 years or less.

It's a catch-22. They won't become cheaper until they're more widely adopted.


scrapedape


Jan 29, 2007, 6:49 AM
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Re: [rhaig] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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CK, do you know what an externality is?


curt


Jan 29, 2007, 8:15 AM
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Re: [collegekid] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/...page&oref=slogin

Ironically, venture capitalists want governemnt intervention to "level the playing field" in Energy so that their investments in alternative energy play out.

Apparently the "magical hand of the free market" can't solve our global warming OR energy crisis problems.

I'd think you would be in favor of that.

Curt


ChuteandClimb


Jan 29, 2007, 8:20 AM
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Re: [collegekid] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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Apparently, the venture capitalists want preferential treatment they can't get from the free market. Calling it 'leveling the playing field' is an old trick.

They need to get alternate energy going, but it needs to be competitive on it's own.

They'll get there, if it gets propped up, then they won't have the right motivation to make it affordable.


justroberto


Jan 29, 2007, 9:31 AM
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Re: [rhaig] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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rhaig wrote:
part of the problem with alternative energy is that many of the popular alternative sources don't pay off yet. For instance, solar energy. While there is no doubt it is cheaper to operate from solar energy, the installation costs (even when subsidized by government grants) are so high that a grid won't pay for itself for 8-10 years. And most people have problems coming up with 5 figures of install cost (after grants) and waiting 10 years for the investment to pay out.

I'm in the market for a new house. I would roll solar panels into the mortgage if it would pay off in 5 years or less.

It's a catch-22. They won't become cheaper until they're more widely adopted.

the sad thing is that today we consider solar energy "alternative energy." we've forgotten that a hundred years ago (and even today in some parts of the world), solar energy was the only energy. heating and cooling a space using a basic understanding of the sun, other environmental factors, and the properties of building materials was par for the course. i'm excited for the technical innovations to come, but good (old school) environmental design trumps technology any day. it costs little to no more than standard construction and begins to pay off immediately. its too bad we've forgotten how to do that, and the people with the money don't care anyway.

just one asshole architect's opinion.


(This post was edited by justroberto on Jan 29, 2007, 9:33 AM)


reno


Jan 29, 2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: [justroberto] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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justroberto wrote:
the sad thing is that today we consider solar energy "alternative energy." we've forgotten that a hundred years ago (and even today in some parts of the world), solar energy was the only energy. heating and cooling a space using a basic understanding of the sun, other environmental factors, and the properties of building materials was par for the course. i'm excited for the technical innovations to come, but good (old school) environmental design trumps technology any day.

Did people surf the internet much back then?


justroberto


Jan 29, 2007, 1:09 PM
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Re: [reno] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
justroberto wrote:
the sad thing is that today we consider solar energy "alternative energy." we've forgotten that a hundred years ago (and even today in some parts of the world), solar energy was the only energy. heating and cooling a space using a basic understanding of the sun, other environmental factors, and the properties of building materials was par for the course. i'm excited for the technical innovations to come, but good (old school) environmental design trumps technology any day.

Did people surf the internet much back then?

touché. i know your feelings on the environmental issue from previous threads. we'll just have to agree to disagree, although i do respect that you have done research on the issue to be able to coherently debate the issue. now here's my dumbed-down analogy:

i'm projecting a route with a runout above a sketchy cam placement. the crux is 20 ft above this placement. if it blows, i deck. i have 1,000 presumably qualified individuals (ie structural engineers, physicists, geologists, experienced climbers, etc) come take a look at the placement i'm sketched out by. The majority of them say either "that cam will definitely not hold a 40 ft fall," or "it would seem to me that there's a good possibility that cam won't hold a 40 ft fall." the minority tell me there is no reason to suspect the placement will fail, or there is no way the cam will fail with said fall. my personal decision will not be to just go for it and hope everything works out for the best. there may not be an easy solution (bolt that bitch up! arguments aside), but i'm sure going to look for a better one. self preservation is an instinct i possess, and i'd rather be safe than sorry. when it comes to future generations, i'd rather them say "they were dead wrong about global warming, but it's cute they thought about us," than "i'd love to go climbing today but i can't find my spf 437 or my gas mask."


scrapedape


Jan 29, 2007, 2:02 PM
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Re: [reno] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
justroberto wrote:
the sad thing is that today we consider solar energy "alternative energy." we've forgotten that a hundred years ago (and even today in some parts of the world), solar energy was the only energy. heating and cooling a space using a basic understanding of the sun, other environmental factors, and the properties of building materials was par for the course. i'm excited for the technical innovations to come, but good (old school) environmental design trumps technology any day.

Did people surf the internet much back then?

I suspect they did not. And how kind of you to cutely raise that point! Your respectful tone is always so welcome.

Tell me, how much of a household's energy use goes to heating, cooling, and lighting, versus say, running PCs?


justroberto


Jan 29, 2007, 2:51 PM
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Re: [scrapedape] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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scrapedape wrote:
Tell me, how much of a household's energy use goes to heating, cooling, and lighting, versus say, running PCs?

to play the devil's advocate here, computers do have a fairly substantial environmental impact. you'd be appalled at how many gallons of fresh water are used to produce a single microchip, or how many billions of pounds of greenhouse gases the chip factories release into the atmosphere every year.

it's great that some corporations are trying to cut energy use and emissions (hell, even walmart is working on a new prototype because :shock: it just may be financially beneficial to not waste energy at every available opportunity), but we're a long way off.

with that said, i think we should take some personal responsibility in the matter. at the very best, sound ecological design and decisions on an individual level could be a slippery slope to greater societal and political awareness. at the very worst, you could save a lot of money in heating and cooling your house over the years...


(This post was edited by justroberto on Jan 29, 2007, 2:52 PM)


collegekid


Jan 31, 2007, 7:15 PM
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Re: [curt] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
collegekid wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/...page&oref=slogin

Ironically, venture capitalists want governemnt intervention to "level the playing field" in Energy so that their investments in alternative energy play out.

Apparently the "magical hand of the free market" can't solve our global warming OR energy crisis problems.

I'd think you would be in favor of that.

Curt

I'm strongly in favor of that. That's the least-painful way to transition to the oil-less future.

I just found it ironic, that Bush claims enforcement of efficiency standards/alternative energy research will harm the economy. I guess it's an immature kind of irony, since Bush is such a complete and total idiot.


collegekid


Jan 31, 2007, 7:27 PM
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Re: [ChuteandClimb] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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ChuteandClimb wrote:
Apparently, the venture capitalists want preferential treatment they can't get from the free market. Calling it 'leveling the playing field' is an old trick.

They need to get alternate energy going, but it needs to be competitive on it's own.

They'll get there, if it gets propped up, then they won't have the right motivation to make it affordable.

Yeah, kinda like the agricultural industry Crazy

I don't think there's much of a choice, when it comes to "looming environmental catastrophe of proportions never before endured" or "stop using so much damn fossil fuels!". Obviously individuals cannot make the correct choice, so therefore the government is obliged to enforce it economically (kinda like taxing cigarrettes). If the governments primary job is to ensure the security and well-being of its citizens, then enforcing a transition from fossil fuels to non-fossil energy seems within that job description.

I suggest that anyone interested read the book "The Long Emergency," it was suggested by my Advanced Energy professor, and presents a very sobering viewpoint on the looming climate and energy crisis that our species will face during this generation.


unabonger


Feb 1, 2007, 5:02 AM
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Re: [collegekid] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/...page&oref=slogin

Ironically, venture capitalists want governemnt intervention to "level the playing field" in Energy so that their investments in alternative energy play out.

Apparently the "magical hand of the free market" can't solve our global warming OR energy crisis problems.

not ironic. not a surprise.

business people rarely support the free market. they'd rather use government to screw competition.

the defense of capitalism has been left to economists and philosophers and they've not done a great job.


ChuteandClimb


Feb 1, 2007, 11:30 AM
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Re: [collegekid] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
They'll get there, if it gets propped up, then they won't have the right motivation to make it affordable.

Yeah, kinda like the agricultural industry Crazy
sure, propping up the ag industry has done wonders for the small, independent farmer CrazyCrazy


rhaig


Feb 1, 2007, 1:40 PM
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Re: [scrapedape] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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scrapedape wrote:

Tell me, how much of a household's energy use goes to heating, cooling, and lighting, versus say, running PCs?

actually PC's use suprisingly litle electricity. Look at your washer and dryer, water heater, central HVAC. Major appliances use more electricity than most PC's.


scrapedape


Feb 1, 2007, 2:30 PM
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Re: [rhaig] venture capitalists want gov't to un-free the energy market [In reply to]
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rhaig wrote:
scrapedape wrote:

Tell me, how much of a household's energy use goes to heating, cooling, and lighting, versus say, running PCs?

actually PC's use suprisingly litle electricity. Look at your washer and dryer, water heater, central HVAC. Major appliances use more electricity than most PC's.

Exactly my point. There are plenty of things in a typical household that require electricity, but many electrical/gas/oil loads could be substantially reduced through better home design and construction.


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