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cas


Feb 4, 2007, 7:30 PM
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comp format idea
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this is what i had in mind for the format for my gyms comp.

3 divisions
beginner, intermidiate, advance

each division will have 10 routes
5top rop and 5 bouldering

now this is where im having a hard time figuring out for each division

what i had in mind is a mix of a red point comp and a flash comp(lets take beginner for example)

bouldering routes will be a V0 worth 100points, V0+ 120points, V1 140points, V1+ 160points , and V2 180points for a total of 5

and the same idea for the 5 top rope routes for beginner.

each climber will get 3 chances per route, if flashed they get full points for the route, on 2nd try they'll get 75% and 3rd try they'll get 50% of total points

once again same with top rope except bonus point will be awarded if top rope is lead.

at the end of the night ur 3 top scoring bouldering climbs and your top 3 top rope climbs will be added up for your final score.

in case of tie will go to their next highest climb


HOW DOES THAT SOUNDS?!


cintune


Feb 4, 2007, 7:39 PM
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Complicated.


cas


Feb 4, 2007, 7:48 PM
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Re: [cintune] comp format idea [In reply to]
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ya theres alot of stuff to think about from the judges point of view but as far as the climbers go
they just try all their desgnated route and hope they can get it with in 3 tries

any sugestions


cintune


Feb 4, 2007, 8:17 PM
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I haven't gone to a whole lot of comps but the ones I have done have been more of a free-for-all, with everybody just getting in as many climbs as they can, using two witnesses and an honor system to record who did what, and the judges mostly just there to generally keep an eye on things. Tally up your best five or ten scores at the end of the day and that's it. This sounds a lot more structured, which I guess may or may not work out depending on how many routes and competitors there are overall. There's also been an over-40 "masters" division at some of them, which was cool for washed-up tendonitis basket cases like myself. Anyway, there's two cents, maybe someone more comp-savvy can weigh in.


jh_angel


Feb 4, 2007, 8:43 PM
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As someone who has both been in and helped run comps, I'd say your format doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun on either end. Since fun is the key to a successful comp, I suggest you go with the tried and true redpoint format. Just my 2.


cas


Feb 4, 2007, 8:58 PM
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the only problem i see with the red point format is that being a small gym with a small staff its hard to set up 100 routes and have a "free for all". limited on number of routes, im forced to go to a different format...

and doing a red point format with a small number of routes will result in way too many ties...

any suggestions


cas


Feb 4, 2007, 9:09 PM
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ok to make it more fun
after their 2nd fall they get 50% of the designated points so they can finish it on 3rd 4th 5th and so on.
that way they can keep trying and make it more social.
??


usacpnw


Feb 5, 2007, 4:57 AM
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Being a small gym, why would you want to set 100 new routes?
At a regular USAC/ABS Redpoint comp, it is suggested, and usually followed, to only set 50 routes. That number works well with 150+ competitors.
If you are expecting as 60 - 80 people, you should be able to get away with 30 - 40 routes, and with the format you are suggesting, you would be setting 30 anyway?
FYI - A Flash Format comp is when everyone gets to watch a For-runner on a route to get beta, and then climb it themselves.


Partner gunksgoer


Feb 5, 2007, 5:29 AM
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Mixing bouldering and toproping doesnt sound like such a great idea. Go for one or the other.


Partner sevrdhed


Feb 5, 2007, 6:32 AM
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Re: [gunksgoer] comp format idea [In reply to]
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Your comp format sounds exceedingly complicated. It can be hard to put together and successfully run a comp based on a format you KNOW. Much less one that you're kind of making up as you go along.

If you want some good ideas for comps, check out these guys http://www.frontslc.com

For the past 2 years, they've been having regular competitions during gym-climbing season. Every time they have one, the comps have gotten better and better.


cas


Feb 5, 2007, 7:43 AM
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ok heres what im worrie about
even if i build over 30 routes
i still have to designate routes for beginner, intermeidiate, and advance to prevent sand bagging

so lets say beginner only get 10 routes and we take top 3 do u think that will be good?
with a red point format im just worried about ties

cassio


jh_angel


Feb 5, 2007, 7:50 AM
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To prevent ties just take 5-10 points off for every fall on a problem (5 if scores are in the hundreds, 10 for thousands). Ties are rare in comps with that set up.


cas


Feb 5, 2007, 7:53 AM
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so wouldn't that be similar to my original idea of giving full points for a flash and deduct 25% for a send on the second try and then 50% if done on 3tries or more?

that doesnt sound to complicated

cas


cas


Feb 5, 2007, 8:08 AM
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now jh angel the taking of 5 points per fall
does that work well for a peer judge red point comp

cassio


paulbehee


Feb 5, 2007, 8:21 AM
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The YCL (youth climbing league) here in Cali does it like this:
3 top ropes, one try each route.
3 boulder problems, 3 tries each.
1 speed climb route, 2 tries.
We do it by age group, but I think this format would work with Beg, Int, Adv.

Number each handhold as they go, a must match on a hand is 2 points (1 each hand) no points for feet.
some do + & - to help. like if you throw for a hold, but hand slips off, you still get a + for going for it. that is how bouldering and TR is scored and then combined for a "difficulty" award, then just the quicker of the speed runs is their time for that.


jh_angel


Feb 5, 2007, 8:26 AM
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Yeah, it's not an uncommon thing to do at redpoint comps. Almost every redpoint comp I've been to does that or some variation of it. By using points instead of %s makes it easier for people to do the calculations and gives them more falls/tries on a problem.

Good luck.

-Josh


Partner sevrdhed


Feb 5, 2007, 8:27 AM
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cas wrote:
now jh angel the taking of 5 points per fall
does that work well for a peer judge red point comp

cassio

That's exactly how comps at the gym I linked you to work. Each problem is given a point value, you deduct a certain amount of points per fall. Nothing too huge, but enough that falling several times makes a difference. Then you climb whatever you can, and take the top 5 problems

To prevent sandbagging, you can set hard point breaks so that if someone reaches that point break, they're automatically bumped up into the higher category. For example, depending on how you rate the problems you could say that if you reach 1500 points, you're automatically in intermediate, and if you reach 3000, you're automatically in advanced.

You could also just break it down by age group. That way, you don't have to worry about sandbagging.


mturner


Feb 5, 2007, 8:42 AM
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I think the number of climbs isn't the problem. It's the scoring system. The best system I've seen doubles their scores with every grade and takes off only 10% after each of the first three falls. After that they get the third fall value for sending. This works really well for a couple reasons. With the system you've presented someone could send a V2 on their third try and get only 90 points but someone could flash a V0 and get 100 points. Sending something two grades harder should probably get more points, no? With the system that doubles each grade someone would get say maybe 20 points for a flash of a V0 but would get 64 points on a send of a V2 after two falls (V2=80 minus 8 points, 10%, for each fall) and therefore the harder climber would get more points. As for the mid-grades (V0+ or V1+) I'd probably find a mid way point (for instance V0=20, V0+=30, V1=40, V1+=60, V2=80). So the points are going up exponentially and does not put such a great emphasis on onsighting. Hope I haven't added to the confusion...


cas


Feb 5, 2007, 2:34 PM
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im liking all this feedback
and its giving me some great ideas so keep the suggestions coming.

i like the idea of a red point comp with a marginal deduction for each fall

like make the routes worth 20-40-60-80 and so on
and they lose 5 points per fall so they would have to fall 4 times before its worth less than the easier route.

sounds right?

cassio


dpinto15


Feb 6, 2007, 11:57 AM
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Mixing bouldering and roped climbing does not sound like a good idea. Most boulders don't like to rope climb and most climbers don't like to boulder. Also time, it takes time to wait in line for a roped problem so the winner might be the person who does all the bouldering routes and then just does a couple of roped climbs.


bob123


Feb 6, 2007, 12:45 PM
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You can reinvent the wheel or......
http://www.usaclimbing.net/rockcomps/resources/ABS8%20OrgHandbook.pdf


ltj16hb


Feb 6, 2007, 1:22 PM
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what about not deducting any points for falls, just keeping tick-marks for each fall, in case of a tie count the fall tick-marks.



...in case of a tie in that situation, on-site problem tie breaker???


whatever you choose, good luck!!


cas


Feb 8, 2007, 2:29 PM
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final tought!

so after doing so research i found that a red point format would be the funnest and simplist way to go.

what i had in mind was a total of about 30 or so routes

beginners get 10 routes
intermidiate get 10
and open get 10 routes

each division records their 3 best climbs for a final score.


do u think that will work well or is 10 routes per division going to lead to too many ties??

cassio


jpdreamer


Feb 8, 2007, 7:09 PM
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I've really enjoyed the bouldering comps I've done with the format of flash = 100% of the points, 1 fall = 90 %, 2+ falls = 80%, with the house rule of you get one "do over", that is you get one card such that if you fall and immediately give an official your card that fall doesn't count against you, which is nice for the fluke case where you should have had the problem but your foot popped off a hold or whatever.

Also, problems weren't required to be in any particular group, there were a range of problems just with different point values. Then you were free to try whatever you wanted.

10 routes may be too few to accommodate the range of strengths and weaknesses... Maybe set 10 that you think are solidly within each category and 5 between categories. So with 3 groups it'd be 3*10 + 2*5 = 40. Also, toss in some extra problems for the hardest category, above the range of the initial 10 so there's something there if you get some inspiring climbers at the comp, maybe about 5, so 45 in total.

Also, the thing I most enjoy about a climbing comp is that people don't really care about beating someone else, just about climbing their best, and I think the way you don't know how you are doing relative to everyone else is key to that atmosphere, so just keep that in mind. (Don't go out of your way to make them secret or anything, but similarly don't make them extremely public either.)


jakedatc


Feb 8, 2007, 8:48 PM
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only 10 problems to try is pretty freaking boring if you ask me. more routes.. more variety. some balancy, some powerful, some sequency, crimps slopers.. etc

scoring.. i've wanted ABS etc to do the secret cut off numbers for a long time to avoid sand bagging .. that makes people try as hard as they can and not be able to cheat the system..

also no top rope.. either make it all bouldering or all lead

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