|
|
|
|
sladehawke
Feb 15, 2007, 3:12 AM
Post #1 of 64
(4705 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2005
Posts: 8
|
I want to post a scenario that recently happened to me, and elicit any criticism or comments you all might have. I will try to make the scenario as short and succinct as possible, but will follow up with more details if anyone is interested. I just want to share the most basic facts without introducing my opinion (yet).
I was making a climb as part of a belayer checkout in the leading area of an indoor gym. As I reached the halfway point between the 4th and 5th clips (6th and final is shuts) I looked down to ensure the belayer was looking at me, and then I took an intentional fall. I made no attempt to yell out that I was falling. I was clipped in to the 4th clip, and was ~3.5 feet above it.
There was no catch, and no noticeable sudden braking before I hit the floor. There was enough drag to land on my feet without needing to make a PLF (it was a marginal call) and I was completely uninjured. The belayer sustained painful rope burns.
A few more points:
* I wanted my friend to be checked out as a belayer in the lead-room, so a manager was observing this checkout (but not part of a class).
* This person has belayed me numerous times on top-rope (we have top-roped in the gym for 3 months) and he climbs at a 5.10 level.
*He has told me that he has worked in a gym and had been leading in the gym and outdoors, several years prior
*I have been lead climbing for ~3 years and this belayer has seen me climb lead in the gym with other belayers
I can see many possible faults, on both ends, but based on this info, I'd like to see what you all think! I will respond later with my viewpoint and opinions. This is kinda like a case study for me… If my train of thought turns out to be way off from the general consensus, I need to either stop climbing or change my way of thinking.
Thanks for reading/commenting.
|
|
|
|
|
kiwibob
Feb 15, 2007, 3:17 AM
Post #2 of 64
(4702 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2006
Posts: 5
|
Seems pretty obvious to me; find a new belayer. Good to hear you weren't hurt.
|
|
|
|
|
phillygoat
Feb 15, 2007, 3:44 AM
Post #4 of 64
(4663 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2004
Posts: 428
|
Has the whole world gone crazy!!???
Enough with the analysis: dropping your leader is NOT excusable!
This needs to remain taboo. The web is interesting- get enough people doing something f-ed up and people start to think it's acceptable.
Sure, we can occasionally learn from others mistakes, but I worry that frequent, rational discussion of people doing one of the worst things imaginable sends the wrong message.
You drop somebody, you earned the stigma.
|
|
|
|
|
treddy
Feb 15, 2007, 4:04 AM
Post #5 of 64
(4647 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 47
|
phillygoat wrote: Has the whole world gone crazy!!??? Enough with the analysis: dropping your leader is NOT excusable!
I agree...whats going on with people getting dropped!? I don't care if we make prolonged eye contact and I scream "holy dear god I'm coming off!" or if I'm 100ft off around a roof on a hip belay and there is no visual or verbal contact, it is not ok. If I were lucky enough to get up, rope burn would be the least of my belayer's problems. 
That said, isn't it standard practice during a belay test that the tester maintains a backup belay? Or does he/she have rope burns too?
(This post was edited by treddy on Feb 15, 2007, 4:05 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Feb 15, 2007, 4:04 AM
Post #6 of 64
(4647 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
gri gri
|
|
|
|
|
nightlion
Feb 15, 2007, 4:11 AM
Post #7 of 64
(4640 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 31, 2004
Posts: 229
|
anyone that drops someone should not be allowed to belay without a backup belayer. I would have a very hard time doing anything besides bouldering (with safe landings) with a person that dropped me.
|
|
|
|
|
bent_gate
Feb 15, 2007, 4:12 AM
Post #8 of 64
(4639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2620
|
So after this, did the manager give the belayer a passing grade? If so then everything is ok... (wtf)
Look, dropping a climber is never acceptable. You need to apply whatever standard you apply to yourself, to other belayers. Would you drop someone in those circumstances? If not, then you have every right (and duty) to let them know about it. Do you allow yourself to lapse when you are belaying someone? My guess is, of course not.
Thank God that you are alright. I hope it inspires you to expect more from others when your life is on the line. It's not negotiable.
|
|
|
|
|
chalkfree
Feb 15, 2007, 4:35 AM
Post #9 of 64
(4614 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 512
|
A gri gri is not a license to be a fuck off. The other day an extremely experienced climber/belayer that I am acquainted with nearly decked a kid because the rope drag + small climber + skinny rope all added up to a gri gri that didn't lock.
There's no excuse for a belayer dropping his leader unless s/he's just been smashed under a rock the size of god himself.
Certainly there's no excuse for this sort of fuckoff behavior in a gym. I'd beat the little pissant that dropped me to death with a number 5. Any other response is mercy, and we all know that mercy is weakness.
|
|
|
|
|
coastal_climber
Feb 15, 2007, 4:49 AM
Post #10 of 64
(4600 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 2542
|
chalkfree wrote: A gri gri is not a license to be a fuck off. The other day an extremely experienced climber/belayer that I am acquainted with nearly decked a kid because the rope drag + small climber + skinny rope all added up to a gri gri that didn't lock. There's no excuse for a belayer dropping his leader unless s/he's just been smashed under a rock the size of god himself. Certainly there's no excuse for this sort of fuckoff behavior in a gym. I'd beat the little pissant that dropped me to death with a number 5. Any other response is mercy, and we all know that mercy is weakness.
Good Call!
There is absolutely NO excuse for dropping someone! You need a new partner. You shouldn't have to check to make sure he is belaying you. That is a given. He agreed to tie in, he needs to take responsibility for what he is doing.
|
|
|
|
|
drfelatio
Feb 15, 2007, 4:56 AM
Post #11 of 64
(4591 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 475
|
Please. Using a Gri-Gri does not prevent a belayer from dropping their climber. I've seen it happen. The belayer simply didn't let go of the device and lock off the rope. People that believe a Gri-Gri will solve all their belaying problems don't know what they're talking about and shouldn't be out there belaying.
Besides, the OP never mentioned what type of device was used. So for all we know, a Gri-Gri was being used.
And I'll echo treddy's comment as well. If this was a belay check, why wasn't a gym employee there to backup the belay? I'd be hesitant to visit that gym again if they have such lax safety precautions.
|
|
|
|
|
randomtask
Feb 15, 2007, 5:14 AM
Post #12 of 64
(4572 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 106
|
You just don't drop people. Your belayer was completely at fault, you don't need to make eye contact, or call out "Take!!" The second your partner says "on belay" is when the belayer has complete responsibility for not dropping the leader. Period. There shouldn't be any discussion. The job of a belayer is to catch the leader and, if possible not allow the leader to deck. Anyone who might have said something else in another thread is full of shit. Dude, if you fell outside from between the 4 and 5 bolts you'd be seriously in trouble (assuming they are about 10 feet apart). If you fall and the belayer catches you but you still deck it's probably your fault for the way you protected it. Bottom line-get a belayer who can catch.
-JR
|
|
|
|
|
vector
Feb 15, 2007, 5:45 AM
Post #13 of 64
(4553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 88
|
Ok, first of all I agree that the belayer has flunked and is expelled from climbing.
But can anyone explain to me when it might even be _slightly_ difficult to catch someone? The only time I have ever had any difficulty was in bringing up a second when there was nowhere to run a redirect. And there was no trouble *braking* the rope in the belay device (I got pulled off my stance and was not situated properly in relation to the anchor resulting in slowly sliding a few feet--a mistake I will not make again).
I have caught some pretty big whippers and it is no harder to brake than a small fall (sure you might get pulled off the ground, but that is just good fun). I have seen *tiny* girls catch repeated falls from much heavier guys with no problem.
Is there any other legitimate reason that it is hard to make a catch than inattention or poor technique? I want to make sure I know if there is something I am not considering.
|
|
|
|
|
djbiggs
Feb 15, 2007, 5:45 AM
Post #14 of 64
(4553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2005
Posts: 22
|
Since you got away without injury he was well within his rights to drop you.... what were you thinking .... that you could trust that guy with his hand on the rope?
What kinda climber falls anyway, the belayer is just there so you don't feel lonely and to stoke your ego since you know someone will always be watching you. ( not to catch you sheesh, you ask so much ego stroking and saftey?)
|
|
|
|
|
chalkfree
Feb 15, 2007, 5:49 AM
Post #15 of 64
(4547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 512
|
I think being stoned as hell would be a fairly good excuse, I've seen that one go wrong myself on at least one occasion.
|
|
|
|
|
sladehawke
Feb 15, 2007, 11:28 AM
Post #16 of 64
(4518 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2005
Posts: 8
|
The first thing I said after standing up was "you fail!"
I presume that his self-defense mechanisms were responsible for him saying that I "needed to always yell when falling" and I was was "lucky that he didn't just let go of the rope, because that's what most other people would have done once the rope starts to burn their hand."
The manager did not have a backup belay.
I was kinda shaken up, though I had a smile on my face to show that I was unhurt (and in some form of shock).
Thanks for your replies, after listening to him on the ride home (50 miles - we carpool), I started to second guess my own thoughts on the matter. I felt bad that he had pretty bad burns on his hand (he can't hold a fork to eat with).
To me, unless equipment fails* or a climber misses a clip*, there is absolutely no friggin' excuse for a climber hitting the deck.
*Even this is conditional, someone may need to be held responsible for not inspecting the gear or possibly for not calling out the missed clip.
To me, it doesn't matter if you have to jam your hand into the ATC to make the brake with a bloody knub. The climber cannot hit the ground. Since the manager didn't make a big deal (other than to say "you fail," and you must take the beginning lead class) I wasn't sure if my "no excuse" thinking was aligned with the rest of the world of climbing.
I did not make a scene (but now feel that I should have! There is no excuse for this!) because I had a 30 minute ride home with the guy and I wasn't thinking clearly because of the shock of it all... all of my confidence flew out as I passed the first clip on the way down.
phillygoat: I think your comment is right on. I can't just let this go....
|
|
|
|
|
jimo
Feb 15, 2007, 12:07 PM
Post #17 of 64
(4509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 21, 2005
Posts: 79
|
Years ago I was dropped while TRing a proj. Thanks God it was a short line that I was working- the finish was a dyno to a sloper. I had the TR set up with good anchors, and to reduce friction, I used a heavy duty pully at the top anchor (1st mistake). My belayer was a novice at best, ok, he was my 13 year old nephew... (2nd mistake) He'd belayed me many times previously with no problem. I lunged for the sloper and peeled... waited for tension and hit the ground, ass first. Panic struck me as I rolled on the ground, until I realized I wasn't paralized. Anyone other than my sister's kid, I would have killed on the spot.
I broke my cosix (?) and could hardly walk for a while. I could not climb first from the pain then from fear, it took many years to get over the fear of being dropped again.
There are many things I do differently now. Most noteably, I watch the belayer while they have someone else on the sharp end and offer to help improve their skills if warrented, or I just don't climb with a crappy belayer.No real point, just wanted to share. JO
(This post was edited by jimo on Feb 15, 2007, 12:10 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
c-money
Feb 15, 2007, 12:28 PM
Post #18 of 64
(4499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 252
|
drfelatio wrote: And I'll echo treddy's comment as well. If this was a belay check, why wasn't a gym employee there to backup the belay? I'd be hesitant to visit that gym again if they have such lax safety precautions.
I have climbed in maybe 20 plus gyms over the last 10 plus years and I have never once had my belay backed up on a belay test. Ever.
This was a belay check, not a lesson. The belayer should be experienced, knowledgable and capable without any supervision at all! If there was any question, they should have never even attempted (or been allowed) to take the climber's life in their hands and belay them.
Responsibility in this senario is on the belayer, but the climber also gets some of the blame for their choice in belayer. Sounds like you maybe should have known better...
|
|
|
|
|
fancyclaps
Feb 15, 2007, 1:59 PM
Post #20 of 64
(4454 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 210
|
sladehawke wrote: I presume that his self-defense mechanisms were responsible for him saying that I "needed to always yell when falling" and I was was "lucky that he didn't just let go of the rope, because that's what most other people would have done once the rope starts to burn their hand."
Dont. Climb. With. Him. Again.
If your belayer makes the argument that you were LUCKY that he TRIED to not drop you because most people would, he obviously does not understand the idea of belaying. It is not a conditional, "owchie my hand hurts I dont wanna do this no more" situation. You keep that rope in a god damn death grip even if you have to slice down to the bone in your hands.
I read a great story in Climbing(or maybe Rock and Ice) about some oldschool traddie who was belaying and got knocked out by a rock. The author of the story was the one who dislodged the rock, and after he figured out what happened he rappelled down to the ledge his belayer was on. He found his belayer unconscious but even then he still had the rope locked off. THAT is belaying.
(This post was edited by fancyclaps on Feb 15, 2007, 2:03 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
stagg54
Feb 15, 2007, 2:03 PM
Post #21 of 64
(4447 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 190
|
jimo wrote: Years ago I was dropped while TRing a proj. Thanks God it was a short line that I was working- the finish was a dyno to a sloper. I had the TR set up with good anchors, and to reduce friction, I used a heavy duty pully at the top anchor (1st mistake). My belayer was a novice at best, ok, he was my 13 year old nephew... (2nd mistake) He'd belayed me many times previously with no problem. I lunged for the sloper and peeled... waited for tension and hit the ground, ass first. Panic struck me as I rolled on the ground, until I realized I wasn't paralized. Anyone other than my sister's kid, I would have killed on the spot. I broke my cosix (?) and could hardly walk for a while. I could not climb first from the pain then from fear, it took many years to get over the fear of being dropped again. There are many things I do differently now. Most noteably, I watch the belayer while they have someone else on the sharp end and offer to help improve their skills if warrented, or I just don't climb with a crappy belayer.No real point, just wanted to share. JO
Jimo I would say you both share the blame. a pulley???? There is a reason most people don't use a pulley as there master point when they are TRing.
|
|
|
|
|
treddy
Feb 15, 2007, 2:06 PM
Post #22 of 64
(4445 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 47
|
c-money wrote: drfelatio wrote: And I'll echo treddy's comment as well. If this was a belay check, why wasn't a gym employee there to backup the belay? I'd be hesitant to visit that gym again if they have such lax safety precautions. I have climbed in maybe 20 plus gyms over the last 10 plus years and I have never once had my belay backed up on a belay test. Ever.
I've actually had the opposite experience. In the past few years, I've taken TR or lead belay tests in about 5 different gyms, and have always had the tester giving a backup belay. I assumed this was standard practice, and I'm surprised it's not, if only for insurance reasons.
I'm not trying to push any blame on the gym here: the belayer deserves every interesting interaction between climbing gear and bodily orifice imaginable. But, given the wide range of people taking tests at gyms (many of whom just learned in the parking lot, or worse), I imagine using a backup for belay checks has saved many people much pain.
Tim
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Feb 15, 2007, 2:15 PM
Post #23 of 64
(4434 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
I havent dropped you yet Tim
When we gonna go back to cathedral
Oh to the OP, did you make sure your belay knew how to lead belay.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Feb 15, 2007, 2:38 PM
Post #24 of 64
(4415 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
Yet another sensless accident preventable by gri-gri use. Is the belayer still a doofus if he uses a gri-gri? Yes. Would I let this doofus belay *me*? No!Would he have dropped the OP if he had a gri-gri? NO! Just like anti-lock brakes, gri-gri's help the retards of the world not have accidents. All the people saying you're just as likely to be dropped with a gri-gri are FOS.
|
|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Feb 15, 2007, 2:48 PM
Post #25 of 64
(4397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
dynosore wrote: Yet another sensless accident preventable by gri-gri use. Is the belayer still a doofus if he uses a gri-gri? Yes. Would I let this doofus belay *me*? No!Would he have dropped the OP if he had a gri-gri? NO! Just like anti-lock brakes, gri-gri's help the retards of the world not have accidents. All the people saying you're just as likely to be dropped with a gri-gri are FOS.
Instead, they will be dropped from the top of the climb when the doofus with the Grigri is trying to figure out how the lever works...
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
