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dbrayack


Feb 13, 2007, 11:50 AM
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Hangboard Training: Education
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I just started hangboard training about two weeks ago....you know, I used to think that I had pretty good grip strength...definitely not the case!

Especially pockets. I can hold the edges no problem, but man, the pockets, not only am I half afraid, but I suck at them (and they kinda hurt)

Its amazing how a simple training tool can stand out and tell you: Hey Danno, your grip strength sucks.

I've always said that hangboard training was BS and could lead to injury...guess I was wrong (I've found that I'm wrong a lot).

-Danno


rockprodigy


Feb 14, 2007, 10:16 AM
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Re: [dbrayack] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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I'd say the verdict is still out. Let us know when you have actually improved from hangboard training....


dbrayack


Feb 14, 2007, 10:18 AM
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Re: [rockprodigy] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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What would that verdict be?


Partner robdotcalm


Feb 14, 2007, 10:19 AM
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I've always said that hangboard training was BS and could lead to injury...guess I was wrong (I've found that I'm wrong a lot).


Whether it's effective or not to improve climbing, people argue about. Nobody argues about it's potential to cause injury. So train carefully with it and good luck.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


rockprodigy


Feb 14, 2007, 10:24 AM
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Re: [dbrayack] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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dbrayack wrote:
What would that verdict be?

This verdict:

dbrayack wrote:
I've always said that hangboard training was BS and could lead to injury...guess I was wrong

You may yet find it to be BS...I don't think so, but it's possible.


(This post was edited by rockprodigy on Feb 14, 2007, 10:24 AM)


rockprodigy


Feb 14, 2007, 10:26 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:

Whether it's effective or not to improve climbing, people argue about. Nobody argues about it's potential to cause injury.

On the contrary, I've frequently argued that hangboards prevent injury.


dbrayack


Feb 14, 2007, 10:27 AM
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We shall seee....I mounted it and two campus rungs above the mantel in my current residence..I've been trading off between the hangboard and just campusing.

I'm starting to have second thoughts about the pockets since they hurt so much...maybe I'll start just doing the crimps (open handed) to work a different muscle group?

What'd you think.


shimanilami


Feb 14, 2007, 10:44 AM
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My grip strength and stamina has improved significantly since I started training on the hangboard. Also, it seems that crimpers hurt less.

I'm only one person, but the verdict from me is that a hangboard has, without doubt, made me a stronger climber.

(I'll also add that I work in core-strength exercises while I'm hanging. Also, I'm now able to do campus-board workouts which I couldn't do before the hangboard. These other activities certainly have contributed to my gains.)


rockprodigy


Feb 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
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dbrayack wrote:
I'm starting to have second thoughts about the pockets since they hurt so much...maybe I'll start just doing the crimps (open handed) to work a different muscle group?

What'd you think.

I'm not sure if this is a question or not, but just in case it is:

I would not avoid pockets if I were you, it seems clear to me that it is a major weakness for you, which is probably why it hurts. Unless you plan to avoid all routes with pockets from here to eternity, I would fix that weakness. In my opinion some of the best sport routes in the universe rely heavily on pockets, but I should caveat that by saying I've never been to New Jack City.

I would just start out very slowly...don't apply enough weight to make the pockets hurt, and gradually you'll get to a point where they don't hurt anymore.


adklimber


Feb 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
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Re: [rockprodigy] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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rockprodigy wrote:
dbrayack wrote:
What would that verdict be?

This verdict:

dbrayack wrote:
I've always said that hangboard training was BS and could lead to injury...guess I was wrong

You may yet find it to be BS...I don't think so, but it's possible.

placebo effect for sure...that's about it.

Whatever you do, do not read Rockprodigy's article on periodization training...

just climb the hardest thing in the gym...dyno to the smallest pocket over and over again, until you master that 'killa move'...IMHO


dbrayack


Feb 14, 2007, 11:05 AM
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Re: [adklimber] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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Unfortunately, we don't have a gym in the state of West Virginia...


Partner robdotcalm


Feb 14, 2007, 11:21 AM
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Re: [rockprodigy] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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rockprodigy wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:

Whether it's effective or not to improve climbing, people argue about. Nobody argues about it's potential to cause injury.

On the contrary, I've frequently argued that hangboards prevent injury.

Hangboard training's property of preventing injury does not contradict the possibility of its causing injury. It can do both.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


adklimber


Feb 14, 2007, 12:46 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Hangboard Training: Education [In reply to]
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dbrayack wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't have a gym in the state of West Virginia...

Educate yourself:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html

(This post was edited by adklimber on Feb 14, 2007, 1:30 PM)


bkalaska


Feb 14, 2007, 1:07 PM
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Build up slowely especially at the start. Two things to remember always: 1) You can build up muscle strength very quickly and easily overwork your tendons to failure. Muscle recovers way faster then tendons about 2 days compared to a week. There is very limited blood flow to this connective tissue and it takes FOR-EVER to heal. I just finished taking 3 weeks off from climbing because I had never fully let an overworked (not torn) tendon heal. It is feeling better, but I have to again start all over slowely building tendon strength so I don't have another problem from my "huge forearms." 2) If it hurts at the start of excercise don't keep doing what your doing. If it starts to get sore after a while stop. The only muscle in your hand is for the thumb. If your hand hurts you are overworking the tendons. Always allow yourself to recover to a point where you don't feel like you're stressing the tendons early in the workout. Using your feet or a stretchy band can help reduce some of the weight when using pockets. It isn't weak to train properly. Also try being on a jug and a pocket at the same time and slowely wieght the pocket. Variety is great for training.


dbrayack


Feb 14, 2007, 3:00 PM
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Good call man, I think what I'll do is mix a pocket with a crimp so i can balance it out...I figure my tendons are strong enough to take the punishment, but im not doing it more than 3 days a row.

Thanks man,

-Danno


miavzero


Feb 14, 2007, 3:26 PM
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dbrayack wrote:
Good call man, I think what I'll do is mix a pocket with a crimp so i can balance it out...I figure my tendons are strong enough to take the punishment, but im not doing it more than 3 days a row.

Thanks man,

-Danno
If pockets hurt your fingers, your tendons are probably not strong enough to take the punnishment.

Not doing it more than 3 days in a row?
I wouldn't do hangboard training two days in a row if it is anything more than a few pull ups or easy hangs.


dbrayack


Feb 14, 2007, 3:45 PM
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Well, I'm not sure if it per say "hurts", I guess that I'm just not comfortable with it. I think doing pocket one hand and crimp other hand would be perfect though.

I generally climb 3 days in a row so I figure Hangboarding it oughta be OK.

I do 1 day weighted, one day no weight, one day weighted...(also campusing day 1 and 3)...it fits well in my Sa-Su climb, M,F Rest, T-R Train.


sidepull


Feb 14, 2007, 4:33 PM
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dbrayack wrote:
Well, I'm not sure if it per say "hurts", I guess that I'm just not comfortable with it. I think doing pocket one hand and crimp other hand would be perfect though.

The problem with this set up is that if you have a stronger hand, and most do, then it's hard to know how much you're stressing your hand. A good trick is to put a scale beneath your hangboard and measure how much weight you take off with your weak hand and only do that much with your strong hand until it evens out. Crimping with one hand and using pockets with the other isn't a really good idea.

Also, it may be that the pockets hurt because of the design of your hangboard. Do the pockets have a nice rounded, ergonomic entry or are they edgy? If the pain is a problem from the design of the board/size of your fingers then I'd suggest getting a different board.

dbrayack wrote:
I generally climb 3 days in a row so I figure Hangboarding it oughta be OK.

Nope - bad logic. You can climb three days in a row because you're using a variety of muscles while your climbing, but hangboards are meant to optimally stress your fingers so you're only asking for an injury. There are very few sports where you can train 3 days in a row, focusing on the same muscle group, without creating injury. Don't do it. 1 day on, at least 1 day off, if not two.

dbrayack wrote:
I do 1 day weighted, one day no weight, one day weighted...(also campusing day 1 and 3)...it fits well in my Sa-Su climb, M,F Rest, T-R Train.

This schedule makes no sense to me at all. I'd recommend looking at Rockprodigy's article or Performance Rockclimbing or the Self-Coached Climber to see how to schedule your training. Right now it seems you're just asking for a tendon injury. Note that my concern with injury isn't due to the hangboard, but the lack of knowledge regarding scheduling.


(This post was edited by sidepull on Feb 16, 2007, 2:25 PM)


sesser125


Feb 14, 2007, 4:33 PM
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Keep up the good work. As for the people who believe hangboards dont show results, I attended a lecture from John Gill and I quote "If I could back I would spend less time training big muscles (doing pullups) and more time training contact strength (hangboards)" I have also noticed significant results. I use a combo of Metolius's work out along with one I foulnd on Ben Moon's website. Good Luck


fluxus


Feb 15, 2007, 2:34 PM
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sesser125 wrote:
As for the people who believe hangboards dont show results, I attended a lecture from John Gill and I quote "If I could back I would spend less time training big muscles (doing pullups) and more time training contact strength (hangboards)" I have also noticed significant results.

When someone like Rockprodogy mentions that a hang board may or may not produce imporvements you can be sure that he is not looking for testimonials. Rightfully, he is thinking in far more concrete terms than that.


jakedatc


Feb 15, 2007, 9:14 PM
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Also it hasnt been added but you should be doing everything open handed.. open hand strengthens open hand and crimping strength and i believe has a lower potential for tendon injuries. crimping only trains crimping.

warm up.. warm down.. i'd say 3 days a week with at least one rest day in between would be good.. i don't do much on a hangboard but when i do get to the gym i try to go to failure(falling off 5.7... v1's etc) so i don't even want to think about touching holds the next day anyway.

from metolius
In reply to:
How to Grasp the Grips: You want to use an open-handed grip as often as possible. Most climbers are weaker open-handed than crimped, so you may find this difficult at first, but you'll get used to it. Training open-handed will increase your crimp strength (but not vice-versa), and it is essential for holding pockets, slopers, and certain edges, as well as making moves at maximum stretch and catching dynos. Most importantly, however, using an open hand lowers the potential for injury. As you adapt to training, you can incorporate a little crimp training to increase your maximum edge-holding power, but keep it to a minimum.


adklimber


Feb 16, 2007, 8:34 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
open hand strengthens crimping strength
In reply to:


not true at all!!!!

you should train crimping strength by crimping...like Rockprodigy said, to keep you from injury. If you only use an open hand in training and then jump on a route/problem that is crimpy you will not be ready for it and cause injury or not be strong enough to send.

(This post was edited by adklimber on Feb 16, 2007, 8:36 AM)


jakedatc


Feb 16, 2007, 9:35 AM
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wanna quote him saying that?

crimping is just a way of focusing the weight onto the bones and tendons. This just puts a ton of strain on your tendons and pulleys.

whatever.. have fun having your fingers feel like shit


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Feb 16, 2007, 9:51 AM)


adklimber


Feb 16, 2007, 9:58 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
wanna quote him saying that?

whatever.. have fun having your fingers feel like shit

yeah...uhhhh have done this and have had results. Read something other than the metolius 'rock rings' pamphlet and get back to me on this one.

There is other literature out there you should look into. Performance Rock Climbing, The Self Coached Climber, and Rockprodigy's article on systematic training. I think everyone would benefit from studying these books and trying it out for themselves. I am not an expert by any means and do not pretend to be, but I would go with these authors any day before anything else.

So, maybe, you should try it out and see how strong you can become.

oh yeah, my fingers feel greatWink.


fluxus


Feb 16, 2007, 1:38 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
How to Grasp the Grips: You want to use an open-handed grip as often as possible. Most climbers are weaker open-handed than crimped, so you may find this difficult at first, but you'll get used to it. Training open-handed will increase your crimp strength (but not vice-versa), and it is essential for holding pockets, slopers, and certain edges, as well as making moves at maximum stretch and catching dynos. Most importantly, however, using an open hand lowers the potential for injury. As you adapt to training, you can incorporate a little crimp training to increase your maximum edge-holding power, but keep it to a minimum.

What an odd statement, rather than providing a way of examining one's own strengths and weaknesses it just assumes that openhanded stuff is a universal weakness. The thing is with a hang board its pretty easy to see what your stengths and weaknesses are so why bother with the blanket statement in the first place. A hang board is both a testing device and a training device.

Second, I think we (myselef included) tend to oversimplify isometric training. Here is the thing, from the literature I have read it seems to be that Isometric training is position specific, that's the part we all know.

However, this does not mean that there is no benefit to other joint positions, what it means is that the benefit diminishes as joint angle changes. Maximum benefit is found within 15 degrees of the joint angle used in training. I believe the fall off is fairly rapid beyond 15 degrees. This being the case, since open handed and crimp positions have very different joint angles at both the proximal and distal interphalangeal joints, its more than likely that there is very little crossover in either direction but I don't know that we can rule out some small amount of "crossover" even if it might be very slight.

In the end the best bet is to train a variety of joint angles and hand positions.

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