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collegekid


Feb 20, 2007, 8:08 PM
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global warming still?
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Are there still "skeptics"?

If you're still skeptical, you'll continue to be so until your house is underwater and it's 115 degrees F in the winter at the north pole.

Seriously people. This is like "is the world flat?" The jury was out for a while, but now it's in. Global warming is real, it is a big problem, and it is at least 90% human caused. There is no excuse to be skeptical about global warming anymore, and by avoiding acceptance you are only extending and amplifying an already huge problem that everyone (in my generation) will be effected by and have to deal with.


stymingersfink


Feb 20, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Re: [collegekid] global warming still? [In reply to]
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fuck your generation, I got mine!










...at least that's what many seem to be saying.



I say "Fuck them" that say "i got mine"


petsfed


Feb 20, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Re: [collegekid] global warming still? [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
Global warming is real, it is a big problem, and it is at least 90% human caused.

And with that single sentence, your credibility as an impartial observer of the science involved just went out the window.

I hate repeating myself CK, but its people like you who give liberals a bad name.

There is very strong evidence to suggest that drastic climate change has occurred in the past. The data to suggest that it is presently happening is also pretty compelling. However, there is ZERO compelling evidence that suggests that it is our fault. There is also ZERO compelling evidence that it isn't our fault.

I've read the papers, I've seen the graphs, the science does not support either opinion as to the root cause of the continuing rise in global average temperature.

Furthermore, the compelling evidence we need so that we can pick sides based on science alone is basically impossible. We do not have an entire planet to just tinker with to find out what is the actual state of affairs.

That is the god's honest truth. Which is basically me saying that a position I believe in and support has virtually no evidentiary support.

Conversely, neither does anybody else.

So now for the punchline. Ask yourself what happens in the case of each theory?

If this particular iteration of global warming is man made and we correct our actions in time to prevent drastic climate changes, we get to keep the planet livable.

If this particular iteration of global warming is not man made and we keep doing what we're doing, give it a couple hundred or thousand years and everything will return to how it was.

Now lets look at what happens if we operate as if a given theory is correct, and we turn out to be wrong.

Given that global warming is man made, and we act as if it isn't, in a few generations we're out a previously functional earth.

Given that global warming isn't man made and we act as if it is (diminishing our carbon impact, cutting down on trash, etc), we're short a few bucks for maybe half a generation while the world economy catches up to us, and we've got a usable planet for the foreseeable future.

Now think about that for a moment and tell me (without any science to back you up) what the more prudent course of action is. Basically we don't lose much if we act as if its our fault. On the other hand, if we act as if it isn't our fault, we've got a 50/50 chance of losing the entire planet. The stakes are too high for those kinds of odds, if you ask me.

Consider it like a poker game. Its down to just you and the guy across from you. Going into this round of bets, you've got an 8 high, no pairs, no straights, and not even a flush. The guy across from you has been betting like a mad man this entire hand. If you call his last bet, you're all in. So the question is: do you call his bluff (that is, keep operating as if global warming isn't our fault) or do you fold (attempt to diminish your carbon impact)? More importantly, can you afford to be wrong?


hangerlessbolt


Feb 21, 2007, 4:20 AM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:

Consider it like a poker game. Its down to just you and the guy across from you. Going into this round of bets, you've got an 8 high, no pairs, no straights, and not even a flush. The guy across from you has been betting like a mad man this entire hand. If you call his last bet, you're all in. So the question is: do you call his bluff (that is, keep operating as if global warming isn't our fault) or do you fold (attempt to diminish your carbon impact)? More importantly, can you afford to be wrong?

Being a player myself, I appreciate the analogy; however, there's one important piece missing...and that's "Who's chips are you playing with?"

I know you can dig

-RB


bizarrodrinker


Feb 21, 2007, 6:45 AM
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Re: [hangerlessbolt] global warming still? [In reply to]
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Its just Mother Earth's way of cleansing itself of the disease that is the human race. Soon everyone will be dead and the cycle will continue.


pinktricam


Feb 21, 2007, 7:55 AM
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Re: [bizarrodrinker] global warming still? [In reply to]
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Thank you global warming for the wonders you've provided...




dingus


Feb 21, 2007, 7:55 AM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
And with that single sentence, your credibility as an impartial observer of the science involved just went out the window.

Just that one sentence?

DMT


dingus


Feb 21, 2007, 7:56 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] global warming still? [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
Thank you global warming for the wonders you've provided...

[image]http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/bill-t_Yosemite-Valley.jpg[/image]

You ever been there?

DMT


winkwinklambonini


Feb 21, 2007, 8:33 AM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
However, there is ZERO compelling evidence that suggests that it is our fault.

Stop it!! That is not true....

http://www.ipcc.ch/

http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf

It's all there, sometimes being contrarian is just pointless.Unsure


pinktricam


Feb 21, 2007, 8:39 AM
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Re: [dingus] global warming still? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
Thank you global warming for the wonders you've provided...

[image]http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/bill-t_Yosemite-Valley.jpg[/image]

You ever been there?

DMT
On my tick list, D...wanna show me around?Wink


dingus


Feb 21, 2007, 8:49 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] global warming still? [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
dingus wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
Thank you global warming for the wonders you've provided...

[image]http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/bill-t_Yosemite-Valley.jpg[/image]

You ever been there?

DMT
On my tick list, D...wanna show me around?Wink

Sure, why not? Let me know when you're coming. I might even be persuaded to rise up off this couch and do a route with you too.

Just don't invite me to any prayer circles and keep all of your 'oh my gods' in lower case and we'll get on famously. I promise not to discuss spirituality and only a smattering of politics. When you see how I drive and climb you'll be too scared to talk about that shit anyway.

Seriously though, I'd show you around.

DMT


pinktricam


Feb 21, 2007, 8:53 AM
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Re: [dingus] global warming still? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
dingus wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
Thank you global warming for the wonders you've provided...

[image]http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/bill-t_Yosemite-Valley.jpg[/image]

You ever been there?

DMT
On my tick list, D...wanna show me around?Wink

Sure, why not? Let me know when you're coming. I might even be persuaded to rise up off this couch and do a route with you too.

Just don't invite me to any prayer circles and keep all of your 'oh my gods' in lower case and we'll get on famously. I promise not to discuss spirituality and only a smattering of politics. When you see how I drive and climb you'll be too scared to talk about that shit anyway.

Seriously though, I'd show you around.

DMT
Thank you, sir, I'd consider it a real pleasure!


ChuteandClimb


Feb 21, 2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: [winkwinklambonini] global warming still? [In reply to]
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winkwinklambonini wrote:
sometimes being contrarian is just pointless.Unsure

No it's not


collegekid


Feb 21, 2007, 11:29 AM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
collegekid wrote:
Global warming is real, it is a big problem, and it is at least 90% human caused.

And with that single sentence, your credibility as an impartial observer of the science involved just went out the window.

1. Increase levels of atmospheric gases that decrease re-emission of energy into space.
2. Watch as planet heats up.
3. Form international panel of experts to determine cause of global warming and generate numerous computer models; results conclude that #1 and #2 were correct to begin with, just as was predicted several decades ago.

In reply to:

I hate repeating myself CK, but its people like you who give liberals a bad name.

Maybe you should stop categorizing people.

In reply to:

There is very strong evidence to suggest that drastic climate change has occurred in the past. The data to suggest that it is presently happening is also pretty compelling. However, there is ZERO compelling evidence that suggests that it is our fault. There is also ZERO compelling evidence that it isn't our fault.

I disagree, and so does the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I'd prefer to trust their judgement over yours.

While I agree with your argument for curbing carbon emissions, I think that people will not act on it unless there is a direct link between their actions and their future (and even then, most people won't act). So, it is necessary to tell people the truth: that their actions are 90% likely contributing to the re-forming of earth's climate.


rmsusa


Feb 21, 2007, 12:58 PM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
On the other hand, if we act as if it isn't our fault, we've got a 50/50 chance of losing the entire planet.

So where, exactly, does the doomsday scenario come from? And how did you get to 50/50? It's not in the IPCC reports. Theír worst case for sea-level rise in 2100 is 0.88m. I don't see anything in any of their scenarios that we couldn't adapt to over the three generations of people that will experience the possible change. 0.88m over 100 years just means a gradual rise in sea walls. Look what the dutch have done.

That said, let's all do what we can to decrease emissions and increase energy efficiency.

I hear a lot of doomsday scenarios, none of which is supported by anything. Seems like people hear climate change and it gets translated into "the planet is destroyed".

So what's up with your doomsday scenario: "losing the entire planet". Overactive imagination? Peer pressure? Personal nightmares? Desire to scare?


dingus


Feb 21, 2007, 1:07 PM
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Re: [rmsusa] global warming still? [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
That said, let's all do what we can to decrease emissions and increase energy efficiency.

Any action that doesn't include a radical reform of our current corporate globalism approach simply off shore's our pollution at the cost of our economy and perhaps our ability to compete.

ANY rule we apply internally should automatically apply to products and services that originate overseas. If they do not automatically apply to imports than there is no action we Americans can take that will make a difference. I see no reason to commit economic suicide so China may profit from our corpse.

DMT


petsfed


Feb 21, 2007, 2:43 PM
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Re: [collegekid] global warming still? [In reply to]
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collegekid wrote:
1. Increase levels of atmospheric gases that decrease re-emission of energy into space.
2. Watch as planet heats up.
3. Form international panel of experts to determine cause of global warming and generate numerous computer models; results conclude that #1 and #2 were correct to begin with, just as was predicted several decades ago.

To begin with, the data that supports premise 1 has not been proven at a global scale. Indeed, the IPCC says in their report

In reply to:
Difficulties remain in reliably simulating and attributing observed temperature changes at smaller scales. On
these scales, natural climate variability is relatively larger making it harder to distinguish changes expected
due to external forcings. Uncertainties in local forcings and feedbacks also make it difficult to estimate the
contribution of greenhouse gas increases to observed small-scale temperature changes. {8.3, 9.4}
(page 12 of the pdf version of the report, if you want to see it yourself)

So if we can't reliably predict on a small scale what happens. What that suggests to me is that we can't reliably extrapolate from our small scale predictions what will happen at a global scale.

Like I said, there is very strong evidence that the entire planet is warming up. And there is very strong evidence that our global CO2 concentrations are going up. And there is pretty strong evidence that we are the root cause of that CO2 increase. However, I have yet to see data supporting a strong causal connection between the three that works on a global scale. And it is that flaw that will keep people from changing their habits.

Now to other matters. I don't mean liberal in the political Democrats (or perhaps Socialists) forever vein. I mean liberal in the sense of open-mindedness, and desire to move forward, as opposed to close-mindedness and resistivity to progress. It is unfortunate that the two share a name, but it is more unfortunate that as often as not, those who consider themselves liberal in the apolitical sense are lumped in with those who consider themselves liberal in the political sense. And it is people like you who I blame for that particular travesty.

Finally, rising tides really the least of our concerns as far as global climate change. What should concern us is that we have NO IDEA what will happen to various species around the world when the planet heats up. We could see massive fish die-offs and potentially the end of several lucrative agricultural pursuits. On top of that, since we've had a nasty habit of rendering arable land useless, either by turning it into a facsimile of a natural desert, or else paving over it. I myself would be quite resistant to anything that might cost us still more arable land. And of course, a global rise in temperature will increase our use of air conditioners which will mean a greater use of electricity, which is overwhelmingly provided by fossil fuels, fossil fuels that must someday run out. Indeed, if we really do cause a climate change as severe as it seems, we may never come back to a normal climate. The solar system already has one planet whose green house effect has run amok. I don't really think it needs another.


dingus


Feb 21, 2007, 3:29 PM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
And it is people like you who I blame for that particular travesty.

As far as travesty goes that's pretty far down on the list.

DMT


rmsusa


Feb 21, 2007, 3:30 PM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Finally, rising tides really the least of our concerns as far as global climate change. What should concern us is that we have NO IDEA what will happen to various species around the world when the planet heats up. ....

..... Indeed, if we really do cause a climate change as severe as it seems, we may never come back to a normal climate.

We have NO IDEA what would happen to much of ANYTHING under the worst case IPCC scenario. On their timeframe (2100), we have 3 generations to adapt.

So stop with the doomsday wailing. It doesn't help much. "... as severe as it seems..." means exactly what? Are we all going to die before 2020?

What is a normal climate, anyway? How does one define and calculate "global average temperature"? Is it blackbody temperature (measured how)? If you look at their computer projections, some places should be cooler and some warmer. Do we really have a clue? Can a collection of computers predict the future? Didn't that idea die in 1927 at the hand of Heisenberg? At what "global temperature" would we move from a 3 phase water planet to a 2 phase planet? Does anybody know?


winkwinklambonini


Feb 21, 2007, 7:17 PM
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Re: [petsfed] global warming still? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:

Like I said, there is very strong evidence that the entire planet is warming up. And there is very strong evidence that our global CO2 concentrations are going up. And there is pretty strong evidence that we are the root cause of that CO2 increase. However, I have yet to see data supporting a strong causal connection between the three that works on a global scale. And it is that flaw that will keep people from changing their habits.

It may be true that there is no proof of increased CO2 levels cause climate change, but there is strong evidence as you just said, but unlike what you said earlier. But as far as what is keeping people from changing their minds, I doubt the critical mass of Americans are anywhere near the point of waiting for proof of that nature. The very same forces at work that kept most people from even learning that the planet was warming at all don't care about overwhelming consensus that it's caused by humans. Therefore, this conversation is irrelavant. Unsure


graniteboy


Feb 22, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Re: [rmsusa] global warming still? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
We have NO IDEA what would happen to much of ANYTHING under the worst case IPCC scenario. On their timeframe (2100), we have 3 generations to adapt.

Hmmm....well...I for one am wondering this; most Americans finally believe that global warming is human caused....SO WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH????

ONE simple little thing that has been happening as climate shifts just a little teesny eensy bit is this: disease vector insects are shifting their ranges a bit farther north, to areas that used to be less tolerable to these vector species. I'd reference the U.N report on this issue, but I have more important stuff to do today. Look it up yourself, you america hater.

So here's hoping that the incidence of west nile virus in your neighborhood increases again this year. Maybe YOU and YOUR FAMILY will contract it this summer, you'll die, and we won't hafta listen to your assinine america hating anti-science bullshit in here anymore. That goes double for all the other climate change naysayers and republican apologists in here.


(This post was edited by graniteboy on Feb 22, 2007, 10:26 AM)


ChuteandClimb


Feb 22, 2007, 1:04 PM
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Re: [graniteboy] global warming still? [In reply to]
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graniteboy wrote:
so here's hoping that the incidence of west nile virus in your neighborhood increases again this year. Maybe YOU and YOUR FAMILY will contract it this summer, you'll die, and we won't hafta listen to your assinine america hating anti-science bullshit in here anymore. That goes double for all the other climate change naysayers and republican apologists in here.

Just feeling the love washing through the internet.


reno


Feb 22, 2007, 4:49 PM
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Re: [graniteboy] global warming still? [In reply to]
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graniteboy wrote:
Hmmm....well...I for one am wondering this; most Americans finally believe that global warming is human caused....SO WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH????

ONE simple little thing that has been happening as climate shifts just a little teesny eensy bit is this: disease vector insects are shifting their ranges a bit farther north, to areas that used to be less tolerable to these vector species. I'd reference the U.N report on this issue, but I have more important stuff to do today. Look it up yourself, you america hater.

So here's hoping that the incidence of west nile virus in your neighborhood increases again this year. Maybe YOU and YOUR FAMILY will contract it this summer, you'll die, and we won't hafta listen to your assinine america hating anti-science bullshit in here anymore. That goes double for all the other climate change naysayers and republican apologists in here.

Somebody needs a nap.


graniteboy


Feb 22, 2007, 4:50 PM
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Re: [ChuteandClimb] global warming still? [In reply to]
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Jah Mon....I gots de IRIE love thing going here. Specially, mon, for them kind that gots the "Flat earth' mentality goin....all dem people's who don't believe in scientific facts, evolution, climate change, and gravity.
We gots 6 billion humans on de planet, mon...we can afford to lose the dumb ones.
Irie Ites, Jah Love.
And west nile. Sly


rmsusa


Feb 22, 2007, 9:06 PM
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Re: [ChuteandClimb] global warming still? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Hmmm....well...I for one am wondering this; most Americans finally believe that global warming is human caused....SO WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH????

How in heaven's name did you arrive at that ad hominem conclusion! Can you read minds through the internet?

I said nothing about the cause, which I believe is an unimportant side-issue. We should all, as I said in a previous message, try to be more energy efficient because climate change may be important.

My post addressed the worst-case IPCC scenario and expressed doubt that we knew anything about the consequences of their predictions and that we have roughly 3 generations to adapt.

Going around spraying doom about consequences that are PURE speculation with no scientific basis doesn't help.

In reply to:
graniteboy wrote:
so here's hoping that the incidence of west nile virus in your neighborhood increases again this year. Maybe YOU and YOUR FAMILY will contract it this summer, you'll die...
Who's the hater?

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