Forums: Community: The Soap Box:
Rape & War
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for The Soap Box

Premier Sponsor:

 


hangerlessbolt


Feb 22, 2007, 3:30 PM
Post #1 of 18 (1049 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 7255

Rape & War
Report this Post
Can't Post

In reply to:
Also Thursday, an Iraqi official said four Iraqi soldiers were accused of raping a 50-year-old Sunni woman and the attempted rape of her two daughters — the second allegation of sexual assault leveled against Iraqi forces this week.

Brig. Gen. Nijm Abdullah said the alleged attack took place about 10 days ago in the northern city of Tal Afar during a search for weapons and insurgents.

A lieutenant and three enlisted men denied the charge but later confessed after they were confronted by the woman, a Turkoman, Abdullah said. He said a fifth soldier suspected something was wrong, burst into the house and forced the others at gunpoint to stop the assault.

A second rape allegation within a single week is likely to undermine further the reputation of Iraq's security services, which the U.S. hopes can take over from coalition troops so the Americans and their allies can go home.

Certainly nothing new. I've read accounts of soldiers being ordered to rape throughout the war in VN. Though, to be honest, I doubt much of an order would be required considering the age, stress, and mindset of [edited to read] "some" young men in war.

Still...makes my stomach turn.

(This post was edited by hangerlessbolt on Feb 23, 2007, 1:37 AM)


blondgecko
Moderator

Feb 22, 2007, 3:59 PM
Post #2 of 18 (1044 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 2, 2004
Posts: 7666

Re: [hangerlessbolt] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

Good on the fifth guy, though. That's a brave move in such a situation.


fmd


Feb 22, 2007, 5:22 PM
Post #3 of 18 (1025 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Post deleted by fmd [In reply to]
Report this Post

 


dr_feelgood


Feb 22, 2007, 9:22 PM
Post #4 of 18 (1006 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 6, 2004
Posts: 25627

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
hangerlessbolt wrote:
In reply to:
Also Thursday, an Iraqi official said four Iraqi soldiers were accused of raping a 50-year-old Sunni woman and the attempted rape of her two daughters — the second allegation of sexual assault leveled against Iraqi forces this week.

Brig. Gen. Nijm Abdullah said the alleged attack took place about 10 days ago in the northern city of Tal Afar during a search for weapons and insurgents.

A lieutenant and three enlisted men denied the charge but later confessed after they were confronted by the woman, a Turkoman, Abdullah said. He said a fifth soldier suspected something was wrong, burst into the house and forced the others at gunpoint to stop the assault.

A second rape allegation within a single week is likely to undermine further the reputation of Iraq's security services, which the U.S. hopes can take over from coalition troops so the Americans and their allies can go home.

Certainly nothing new. I've read accounts of soldiers being ordered to rape throughout the war in VN. Though, to be honest, I doubt much of an order would be required considering the age, stress, and mindset of young men in war.

Still...makes my stomach turn.

Wrong HLB.....Rape and murder comes from within a person. Just because he/she is in a combat zone does not make someone wanting to rape and murder. Yeah, there are rapist and murders in the military as there are in any community, but combat does not make them into rapist and murders.
Combat more often than not has just the reverse. It tends to humbles oneself and that person appreciates life even more after seeing the pain and suffering. It tends to make you more diverse and tolerant of people. Too bad there arent more of our politicians that have not been in the service or combat. I think that perhaps they would ponder a little more before committing our men/women in uniform in harms way so often. IMHO
You ever been in combat?


petsfed


Feb 22, 2007, 10:23 PM
Post #5 of 18 (1002 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 8585

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
Wrong HLB.....Rape and murder comes from within a person. Just because he/she is in a combat zone does not make someone wanting to rape and murder. Yeah, there are rapist and murders in the military as there are in any community, but combat does not make them into rapist and murders.
Combat more often than not has just the reverse. It tends to humbles oneself and that person appreciates life even more after seeing the pain and suffering. It tends to make you more diverse and tolerant of people. Too bad there arent more of our politicians that have not been in the service or combat. I think that perhaps they would ponder a little more before committing our men/women in uniform in harms way so often. IMHO

I'd say that war changes people more than you might imagine. Consider that the average person may have some misgivings at firing at another apparently human entity. That eventually goes away though, as the mind is desensitized to it. So it stands to reason that over a long enough time period, one's moral center might disappear entirely. At which point rape and unwarranted killings become rampant.


hangerlessbolt


Feb 23, 2007, 1:53 AM
Post #6 of 18 (990 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 7255

Re: [petsfed] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

"Many of our troops have already been deployed to Iraq for two, three, and even four tours of duty averaging eleven months each. Combat stress, exhaustion, and bearing witness to the horrors of war contribute to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a serious set of symptoms that can lead to depression, illness, violent behavior, and even suicide."


fmd


Feb 23, 2007, 3:23 AM
Post #7 of 18 (985 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Post deleted by fmd [In reply to]
Report this Post

 


fmd


Feb 23, 2007, 3:48 AM
Post #8 of 18 (982 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Post deleted by fmd [In reply to]
Report this Post

 


reno


Feb 23, 2007, 5:45 AM
Post #9 of 18 (964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
You ever been in combat?

Being in combat is not exactly a "badge of honor" as a lot of people think it is.

I think the good doctor's point is that when you've got the high-stress, high-intensity, sleep-deprived, near-death experience of warfare as your daily digs, that changes people.

I have never been in such a spot, thankfully, and admire the hell out of those who have. So it's possible I'm wrong here. I also could be misreading what doc-feelgood is trying to say.


Partner epoch
Moderator

Feb 23, 2007, 6:03 AM
Post #10 of 18 (961 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 27, 2005
Posts: 32033

Re: [reno] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

reno wrote:
fmd wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
You ever been in combat?

Being in combat is not exactly a "badge of honor" as a lot of people think it is.

I think the good doctor's point is that when you've got the high-stress, high-intensity, sleep-deprived, near-death experience of warfare as your daily digs, that changes people.
It does change people. And as mentioned above, it can change for the good of the person and the people around him/her, or for the worse.

What saddens me is those who believe that, that type of lifestyle is the only thing for them. That they aren't going to be able to be productive in the ' real ' world, and to combat the stresses associated with Combat, they resort to things that they would otherwise not do. Knowing when to say when is very important, and I applaud the fifth soldier for doing the right thing.


fmd


Feb 23, 2007, 6:25 AM
Post #11 of 18 (959 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Post deleted by fmd [In reply to]
Report this Post

 


petsfed


Feb 23, 2007, 10:09 AM
Post #12 of 18 (924 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 8585

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
Yes. IT DOES change people. I am not arguing that. What I disagree with is that combat or the stress from combat makes murders and rapist. If someone rapes, is it from a stress induced enviroment such as combat or is it that person is taking advantage of being in a combat zone for his crimes. Combat or a stress induced enviroment does NOT make someone rape or murder someone. That comes from a person and that person alone. Not from the situation a person is in.

I am not anti military. I am proud to say that I served. But just because you were in a combat zone or a stress induced enviroment and no matter what someone may had seen or lived, there is NO excuse for murder or rape. There are sevice men on trail now who raped some women. Go to Military.com and read some of the post on what the service men/women are saying. They depise these young men for bringing shame to their units and service. Its an excuse for thier crimes and should be treated as crimes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that rape in war time is not a crime. I'm saying that the people who might be predisposed to rape but haven't because they live in a society that does not allow it may find themselves in a more lenient moral situation during wartime.

We are all deviants in one form or another. Most of us are deviants in such a way that when acted on, we break no laws, and perhaps offend no morals. But we all have interests that make us non-normal. That is the nature of society. There will always be that subset of people who's deviations cross the line into immoral and illegal territory when acted on. And how likely the person thinks they might get caught, and how worthwhile the punishment might be will determine if the person acts on those impulses.

In this particular situation, you have people acting as police, so they consider the odds of getting caught basically nill. Furthermore, its sectarian, Sunni vs Shiite. A lot of horrible things can be done when you think you've got god on your side. Coupled with the sheer volume of crimes that go unpunished, the potential rapists probably decided that it was safe. Would've worked too, if the fifth man hadn't suddenly found his conscience.


hangerlessbolt


Feb 23, 2007, 12:10 PM
Post #13 of 18 (902 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 7255

Re: [petsfed] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

“We were instructed to dehumanize “hajji”…we had to desensitize ourselves…we couldn’t kill them if we saw them as people. They were animals to us.” – Scout Sniper

“We were told to make them fear us…by any means necessary. We were told that there would be no charges brought against us. We were just doing our jobs.”

“I feel like I lost a lot of myself.”

“I didn’t feel [back] then…I just wanted to do my job. I just wanted to be a good Ranger”

“I felt wrong…I felt disgusted with myself. I had to make myself hate them to do my job.”

“My country turned me into the very same thing we were fighting against.” – Army Ranger


“The constant fear of death and the trauma of several devastating incidents took a heavy toll on morale in the U.S. Army unit whose members included five soldiers accused of involvement in the rape and killing of an Iraqi teenager [*on charges of raping and murdering a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killing her parents and 5-year-old sister], witnesses testified Tuesday in a military court.”. – Washington Post


I make no excuses for war crimes. (Including those committed by military leadership and the administration.)

Back in ’91, during training exercises, I recall how pumped we would all get at firing the 50’s and MK-19’s…the noise….the raw power…we would all yell out how hard it made our dicks. 18-20 year old ‘kids’…young, dumb, and full of cum. I thought to myself, “Man, if some of these guys ever had a young girl thrown in the middle of them, they’d fucking tear her apart.” I used to joke that I wouldn’t leave some of these guys in charge of my trailer house…much less, million-dollar pieces of equipment. Man, some of the shit that would go down while we were on leave...

That mentality…added to months of no sense of civility…nothing but constant battle and night raids…you’ve killed more people than you can count…not just the enemy, but, situation dependant [think detonated IED’s] “anything that moves”…as you’ve been ordered to…you’ve joked about blowing hajji out of his sandals with your SAW…you “split a kid’s wig” for throwing rocks at you… you’re on another night raid. You ram your humvee through the front door of a house…ripping out half the wall. Your teams dismounts and enters the dust-filled house…You see two bodies running from right to left…with two clicks of the trigger, they’re both down. You gather the remaining family members, a man, his wife, and three small children, into a room. You’re trying to gather intel. Intel you believe will help keep you from getting killed. You know the routine…and you begin shooting one child for every bit of information that you’re not getting. You’re fondling the guy’s wife…saying to him, “Tell me what you know or we’re all going to fuck her…TELL ME!!” But he doesn’t speak English…you don’t speak Arabic…the fact is, he couldn’t tell you anything, anyway. She was fucked and he was dead before you ever knocked down the door.

Is there a predisposition at work here? Certainly. But I also think that just about every guy who looks at a girl and thinks privately, “I’d like to fuck her.” Has some of that predisposition.

I think most people…men and women… would be very surprised to have their true character revealed through combat.

I know a lot of guys who enlisted into the Corps to escape the domestic combat they were dealing with on a daily basis (gangs, hunger, poverty). They handled things differently than those born of means and security.

Most of us would like to believe that we would do the right thing. But the right thing gets fuzzy…another thing attributed to the “fog of war”. [A really good documentary by Robert McNamara under the same name. Check it out.]

Again, to summarize, I agree that war doesn’t necessarily make the man…but it can make a man unrecognizable to those who knew him before.


(This post was edited by hangerlessbolt on Feb 23, 2007, 12:34 PM)


hangerlessbolt


Feb 23, 2007, 12:30 PM
Post #14 of 18 (895 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 7255

Re: [hangerlessbolt] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

U.S. soldier sentenced to 100 years for rape, murder

In reply to:
FT. CAMPBELL, Kentucky (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier who pleaded guilty to raping and murdering a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killing her family was sentenced to 100 years in a military prison, the U.S. Army said on Thursday.

Sgt. Paul Cortez, 24, was also given a dishonorable discharge under a plea agreement he reached with prosecutors prior to a court-martial that spanned three days, an Army spokesman said.

Cortez, of Barstow, California, was not eligible for the death penalty under his plea agreement, accepted by the court on Wednesday.

Col. Stephen R. Henley, the military judge, found Cortez guilty of conspiracy to commit rape, four counts of felony murder, rape, housebreaking and violating a general order.

Under terms of his plea agreement, Cortez agreed to testify against the three others still facing prosecution in the case.

During the court-martial, a sometimes emotional Cortez recounted how he and his companions drank whiskey, played cards and plotted to attack the family at Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad, in March 2006. The group poured kerosene on the girl's body and lit her on fire in an attempt to cover up the crime.

Cortez testified that Spc. James Barker, who also pleaded guilty in the case, and a since-discharged soldier, Pvt. Steven Green, chose the family to attack because there was only one man in the house and it was an "easy target."

Once at the house, Green, the suspected ringleader, took the girl's mother, father and little sister into a bedroom, Cortez said, while he and Barker took the teenager, Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, to the living room, where they took turns raping her.

He said Green, who has been charged as a civilian and awaits trial in a Kentucky jail, shot the girl's family in another room and then raped the teenager.

The deaths of the girl and her family outraged Iraqis and ratcheted up tension in the war zone.

Barker pleaded guilty in November and was sentenced to 90 years in a military prison. Green was discharged from the Army for a "personality disorder."

Two other soldiers are accused in the case, Pvt. Jesse Spielman and Pvt. Bryan Howard.


reno


Feb 23, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #15 of 18 (879 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
Its an excuse for thier crimes and should be treated as crimes.

Oh, I agree, and a crime is a crime and should be punished. I don't disagree at all, nor am I making excuses.


fracture


Mar 3, 2007, 5:44 PM
Post #16 of 18 (807 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 1814

Re: [fmd] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

fmd wrote:
No doubt that long term deployment in combat operations affect people. But, that alone does not turn them into murders and rapist. I am not going to pretend to be an expert in mental illnesses but PTSD (used to be called shell shock) is more often than not a short term illness from a stress related condition. This comes from stressful situations from all walks of life, not just from combat. More often than not, PSTD leads to nightmares, flashbacks, detachments. My disagreement from your statement comes from your statement I highlighted in bold. Just because somebody is in a stressful enviroment does not make that person a rapist or murders. A stressful enviroment can be many things such as intense training, combat, a clean up of a huge disaster, working in some bad area's of certain cities etc.

Millions of years of evolution naturally finds the successful strategies for reproduction. As much as people don't want to hear it, rape is one of those strategies. Humans, along with many other species of mammals, use rape as a tactic to replicate their genes. It doesn't require trauma or mental illness to make someone into a rapist: it just requires the right set of circumstances for that particular evolutionarily-designed "program", so to speak, to run.

(This, of course, doesn't morally justify rape. But it does point out that you have no clue what you are talking about when you speculate about the causes of these behaviors. You really can't discuss the causes of rape without the tools of evolutionary biology, unless you fancy making an ass of yourself.....)


(This post was edited by fracture on Mar 3, 2007, 5:46 PM)


clausti


Mar 7, 2007, 7:21 AM
Post #17 of 18 (752 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 4, 2004
Posts: 5690

Re: [reno] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

 

though apparently, it doesnt take a war for trained soldiers to behave poorly.


In reply to:

Local soldiers charged with gang rape in Georgia

COLUMBUS, Ga. — Three Army soldiers, two from Washington State, were held without bond after being charged with raping a 21-year-old woman at a motel. A fourth soldier was granted a bond of $5,000 Monday.

...

"They were laughing and high-fiving each other," the woman said. "There's an Army word, 'hooah,' they kept saying. I was screaming, but the stereo was so loud."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/...3606_webrape06m.html


Partner dondiego


Mar 15, 2007, 1:27 AM
Post #18 of 18 (700 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2001
Posts: 1367

Re: [clausti] Rape & War [In reply to]
Report this Post
Can't Post

Well, people are quick to point fingers at the "trained soldiers" but the reporting of sexually oriented crimes on a large base pales in comparisson to say a large college campus. With that being said, I agree with most of what has been posted on both sides of this. Per capita, the sexual assault rate overseas is higher than in the states so it is hard to argue that being deployed doesn't affect a change in a person. What I see is the combination of testosterone and A-type personalities that mixes to take the moral out of the scenario. You are already being asked to kill so you try to put your aversion to killing under wraps. Once you learn to do that, you can learn to do it with anything. The predators that would do it here do it alone over there. They are opportunists. The rest, in my opinion, get caught up in the mob mentality that if others are doing it, it must be ok. That is how we get prisoner abuse, gang rapes, civilians being gunned down, etc. None of that is acceptable, and it should be punished, but it is important to find out where it comes from and what the triggers are if we are to prevent it or reduce it in future conflicts. For the record, crimes by soldiers against Iraqis (specifically rape, murder, and abuse) is drastically lower than in any previous war. We still have a ways to go and that comes from educating the soldiers, but we are making progress.

SFC -DD-


Forums : Community : The Soap Box

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook