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fancyclaps
Feb 26, 2007, 1:50 AM
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After perusing the backlog of posts, google, and wikipedia, I could not find an answer to my question. Why is titanium not used in rock climbing gear?
Does the weight + cost make them more inefficient to produce as opposed to steel and aluminum carabiners?
So any of the RC.com panel of experts care to enlighten me?
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sbaclimber
Feb 26, 2007, 1:57 AM
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I know it doesn't answer your question, but I thought I would mention that titanium is being used for some climbing gear.
http://www.ushba.com/catalog/pitons.html
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Feb 26, 2007, 1:59 AM)
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eliclimbs
Feb 26, 2007, 2:05 AM
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Titanium isn't as "tough" as steel and aluminum. That is, it fractures more easily and is harder to shape. This is because it's internal crystaline structure. Additionally, as you noted, it's really expensive.
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maldaly
Feb 26, 2007, 2:29 AM
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My favorite saying about Ti is that it's heavier than aluminum and weaker than steel. While it has many great characteristics in regards to strength to weight ratios and resistance to fatigue failure, these are characteristics that aren't needed for climbing gear in the degree they're offered in Ti.
We've chosen aluminum for most applications because it's readily available, not too expensive, easy to manufacture, lightweight and strong enough. It's the ideal material for most climbing applications.
There was an outfit around about 10 years ago called Tirilla, a mashup of titanium and gorilla. They made a bunch of Ti carabiners and brought them to the trade show (along with dancers and Miss Texas) thinking they were going to wow the climbing industry. Their lightest carabiners was over 100 gm and were rated to over 30kN. I don't think they sold any of them.
BTW, the stuff that Ushba makes is great but would be lighter, less expensive and probably strong enough if it were made from aluminum. On the other hand, their Ti glue-in bolt is (or should be) the standard bolt for maritime installations because of its resistance to any kind of corrosion.
Hope that answers your questions.
Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on Feb 26, 2007, 2:33 AM)
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fancyclaps
Feb 26, 2007, 3:24 AM
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Thanks for the concise and informed answer! That was what I was guessing, about being in a place where it was neither as good as steel or aluminum.
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brent_e
Feb 26, 2007, 9:20 PM
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I don't know where you can get them but Ti pins are supposed to be pretty good.
Dunno much about them myself, but apparently the russians like em! 
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maldaly
Feb 26, 2007, 10:35 PM
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We used to sell them when Latok, Jeff Lowe's company, was around. They're pretty sketch although we did use them. Try find the thicker ones that have a channel milled into them. They can be stiff enough to resist pulling. Stay away from the ones that look like blades. They just bend and pull out under any real loads.
Mal
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devils_advocate
Feb 27, 2007, 11:22 PM
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They make Ti bolts and they're often used in highly corrosive environments... although currently they’re only really used in areas with high salt water content in the air, I think the market is really going to boom once sport climbing takes off in more caustic locations, like the acidic atmosphere of Venus.
(This post was edited by devils_advocate on Feb 27, 2007, 11:23 PM)
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sgdevil
Feb 27, 2007, 11:57 PM
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I know they use TI bolts on those amazing looking beach climbs in Souther Thailand (Krabi) because the tropical climate and salt water rusts even stainless steel. Just wondering though, any of you know where else TI bolts are needed?
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 28, 2007, 12:31 AM
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maldaly wrote: We used to sell them when Latok, Jeff Lowe's company, was around. They're pretty sketch although we did use them. Try find the thicker ones that have a channel milled into them. They can be stiff enough to resist pulling. Stay away from the ones that look like blades. They just bend and pull out under any real loads. Mal
Do you recommend against using the Latok Ti pins at all? I've got a half dozen or so that I keep around for my alpine rack but have never placed them. Figured they'd be handy for emergency raps or when I wanted something better than an RP on lead.
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maldaly
Feb 28, 2007, 1:06 AM
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I carrierd them for rap pins, etc. Be real sure that there isn't an outward pull on them and you might be okay. Never did have to use one...
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builttospill
Mar 1, 2007, 7:01 AM
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mal, does your last recommendation apply only to the thinner blade TI pins, or to all TI pins in general? I've been looking at picking up some pins but would strictly be using them for alpine stuff and weight is a premium in everything I do. I don't do nailup routes, so they won't see much use....should I look at any TI pins, or just avoid them altogether? Are the angles decent enough when made out of titanium? Thanks for your opinion, it's nice having someone who knows what they're talking about answer your questions.
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maldaly
Mar 1, 2007, 5:24 PM
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We carried them but it's not something I'd recommend. Again, if you can find the ones with groove machined out they were the stiffest. The blade shaped ones were way too flexi. The machined ones were like a fat LA so they would fit in more places. In either case if you have to use them find a place that has a "stopper like" type constriction below to support them.
Today I wouldn't carry Ti pins. For occaisional alpine use you only need a few to cover the thin range. Carry 6 pins up through baby angle size. If the crack is any bigger you can usually find a place for a nut, tricam or cam. The pins would be reserved for iced cracks of a size that you couldn't clean out.
Mal
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sharperblue
Mar 1, 2007, 5:59 PM
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actually there 'twere a manufacturing company - Splitter Gear (unknown if they're still in business or not and far, far too lazy even to google for 'em at the moment) that made cams with titanium wires - the brittleness of the pure metal is mostly side-stepped in the inherently flexible application of the wire rope - i picked up a few, and altho they seemed fine in most other respects (including the ability to be placed passively as stoppers), the wires really, really d*mn stiff - they're really the gear of last resort on my own rack
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pwscottiv
Nov 23, 2007, 11:41 AM
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fancyclaps wrote: After perusing the backlog of posts, google, and wikipedia, I could not find an answer to my question. Why is titanium not used in rock climbing gear? Does the weight + cost make them more inefficient to produce as opposed to steel and aluminum carabiners? So any of the RC.com panel of experts care to enlighten me?
Ok, so there's two major and a couple of more minor things that I think are keeping manufactures from using Titanium in climbing gear. The first two have to do with cost and the minor ones have more to do with the properties of the material itself, the latter two can be overcome though.
First, as most people know Titanium alloy is more expensive when compared to materials like steel/aluminum alloy. In addition, it has a LOT to do with the particular alloy that is being considered. CP (commercially pure) titanium is only about as strong as mild cold-rolled steel, and it also costs less than Titanium alloys... So if you've ever wondered why some titanium products are relatively cheap, its probably because they're made from CP Ti. The alloys of Titanium used for aerospace/biomedical applications are impressively strong and corrosion resistant. However, they are also very expensive.
With respect to the cost, manufacturing is probably an even more important factor to consider. Titanium and aluminum are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum with respect to machinability. Aluminum cuts like butter at extremely high speeds, and the cutting tools last MUCH longer. Titanium is another story, it is one of the most difficult materials to machine... It galls and gums up on the cutters, and is very abrasive. The corrosion resistance of titanium is actually a double edged sword when it comes to machining it, as once you cut it, it instantly forms a hard oxide layer that's more difficult to machine through than the titianium itself. It's not so much of a problem if you're taking deep cuts, but finish passes can be very abrasive on the cutter edge... Which means the cutters have to be switched out more often, which means it takes longer to make the parts.
To make matters worse, if there isn't enough coolant/lubricant used during machining, the metal shavings can very easily catch fire and burn so hot that applying water to them can actually make them burn faster/hotter by providing a source of oxygen. Basically machining titanium really, really sucks when compared to aluminum.
On the more minor side, titanium has problems with galling. Galling is process where a metal easily rubs off on things that are rubbing against it and then those metal particles "weld" themselves to either part that is moving. An example would be the pin and hole on a biner gate, where if it was moved back and forth over time without lubrication, it would be permanently damaged to the point that the gate would never fully close (even if lubrication were subsequently added). Aluminum is susceptible to this as well, but not nearly to the degree that Ti is. Obviously this problem can be avoided by using proper lubrication, a permanent plastic sleeve, and/or surface treatments.
Another problem with Ti is that it's "notch sensitive". That is to say, that if there is a notch (like in the trough of a screw thread), a crack is very likely to form there. Essentially all materials are more likely to fail at a notch or other weakness, but notch sensitive materials like Ti need to have this property taken very seriously during the design process... Turbine engines have fallen off of commercial airliners due solely to this discrepancy.
(This post was edited by pwscottiv on Nov 23, 2007, 11:51 AM)
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dashclimber306
Nov 23, 2007, 4:46 PM
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Didn't Wild Country make a .5 titatnium rigid friend there for a bit? I think i've seen one but they are imposible to find now.
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pwscottiv
Nov 25, 2007, 8:23 AM
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dashclimber306 wrote: Didn't Wild Country make a .5 titatnium rigid friend there for a bit? I think i've seen one but they are imposible to find now.
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jc5462
Nov 25, 2007, 9:38 AM
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Oh my, I remember Tirilla at that trade show. (I have thier catalog/brochure in my catalog archives.) I also remember they thought climbers would have no problem forking out $16-$30 each for carabiners. When I worked for Ball Aerospace, I can remember the machinists talking about the work hardening after working it 4 times and they would have to cycle it in hot water and then dip in LN2 in order to re-align the molecular structure. I also did quite a bit of testing of TI gear with Jim Bowes of USHBA and one test which was of a "Manaraga" carabiner which was a forged sport climbing biner. Anyway while testing it we heard a lot of "Crackling noises" and the spine of the biner split (we could see through the crack, even though it was still intact) and after applying some more force the whole thing blew apart into 3 pieces and all of this was at below 1500 lbs. I had very good results with the IRBS carabiners which the soviet military used, but even these were 70 grams and much smaller. The TI ice axes were definately the best along with the Hogwaller and the Ascenders. Ice screws were varible (Do you remember when You guys sold them? and I had that customer who fell and snapped that one, but found out later it had held, but snapped when they cleaned it?) The cams and nuts were not to good. I have had no problems personally with any of the pitons and have one blade which I had placed 8 times.
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dingus
Nov 25, 2007, 1:56 PM
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dashclimber306 wrote: Didn't Wild Country make a .5 titatnium rigid friend there for a bit? I think i've seen one but they are imposible to find now.
Yes, the were designed to get stuck. Small TCUs pretty much led to their extinction.
DMT
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