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abkaiser


Sep 20, 2002, 6:38 AM
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burning arms - how to train for this?
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So after I spend time bouldering in the gym, I get to the point where my strength is fading. Last night, I did a little experiment - normally, if I'm hanging straight-arm on a hold, open grip, my forearm will start to burn. It's not necessarily pumping, but like a lactic acid burn. If I continue holding, the "burn" gets a little worse.

...What exactly is this? How do I train to extend my muscle no-burn time?


daisuke


Sep 20, 2002, 7:14 AM
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there are lots of things you can do to improve this.

first of all, hydrate your body well, keep the water in your body high and the lactic acid will tend to go into your blood faster.

do cardiovascular workout, the reason lactic acid forms is because of insuficient oxygen in your muscles

and as some more advice? make sure you're breathing, many climbers forget to breathe when pulling strenuous moves!

climb on

D


camhead


Sep 20, 2002, 7:47 AM
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"pumping" is lactic acid burn, and it is the biggest obstacle in the way of building our endurance. It is difficult to control, but you can reduce it on routes by utilizing ALL rests and shaking out on big holds to the maximum.


jprice


Sep 20, 2002, 8:00 AM
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Staying hydrated is very important. But basically, building up strength is the only thing that will keep the burn away, or at least lengthen the time it takes to get to that point. Rest and stretching are also helpful.

Climb safe.


mtnsprts


Sep 20, 2002, 8:57 AM
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Train with weights. You have the strength to be on the wall, all you need is endurance training.......concentrate on high reps with half the weight you would normally lift.


Partner jammer


Sep 20, 2002, 9:19 AM
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Beleive it or not, to control the "burn" I drink a lot of orange juice. It breaks down the latic acid before you start to burn. If you really push yourself, you will burn no matter what ... oj just puts it off for awhile.


climbincajun


Sep 20, 2002, 9:31 AM
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This is all great advice.
I find that proper breathing and taking advantage of rest holds are my two best weapons. A good, creative rest can get you totally refreshed when the burn sets in.


climbinggirl33


Sep 20, 2002, 9:32 AM
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This may not be exactly "on topic" - but you also need to train the "opposing muscles" that you don't use climbing to help prevent injury. I know too many climbers kept off the rocks by tendonitis - caused by the strain of the stronger muscles pulling on the weaker muscles. This is particularly the case with forearms!!!


wyomingclimber


Sep 20, 2002, 9:59 AM
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While weight lifting, cardio work, and orange juice definitely won't hurt, I'm not sure they're optimal training methods to solve your problem.

To answer your question: What you're feeling is simply the build up of lactic acid (a byproduct of anaerobic energy production) in the muscles of your forearms.

There are three main things you can do to improve this:

1: As you say, increase your aerobic floor (time to burn.) This would be done by long efforts (over an hour) at an intensity level below what would give you a burn or pump. There may be reasons that this isn't a great idea for climbing, but they're all pretty theoretical since there's little research on the topic.

2: Improve your body's ability to clear lactic acid. This probably relates to venous return (again little research.) Your veins bulge when you're climbing because they are trying to pull 'used' blood away from your forearms and back into your body where it can be detoxified and re-oxygenated. How to best improve that capacity? Not sure anyone really knows. Perhaps relatively short (4min?), sustained climbs, followed by a rest, then do it again (essentially intervals.)

3: Increase your muscle's ability to tolerate lactic acid. It seems that you can make your muscles somewhat accustomed to working in a toxic environment. Probably laps on big holds, maintaining a pretty good burn for as long as you can.

Good luck with your training.


Partner mchatz13


Sep 20, 2002, 10:35 AM
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2 tablespoons of baking powder in 8 oz of water everyday. Allow 2 weeks to get into your system. Base helps prevent the buildup of an acid


dmon


Sep 20, 2002, 5:31 PM
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Baking soda? Swallowing that will make it go into your stomach, and your stomach acid is a hell of a lot more concentrated than 2 tablespoons of baking soda in a little bit of water. All that you're doing is neutralising a tiny little bit of stomach acid.



jt512


Sep 20, 2002, 7:37 PM
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Listen to Wyomingclimber. He's pretty much said it all. You're not suffering from baking soda deficiency. You need to train your recovery, lactic acid clearance, etc. All the good training climbing books discuss how to do this. Read Performance Rock Climbing.

-Jay


colin


Sep 22, 2002, 10:07 AM
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other topics dealing with this...

here
and
here


abkaiser


Sep 23, 2002, 8:26 AM
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Thanks to all for the excellent help!


gethighonarock


Dec 26, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Re: [climbinggirl33] burning arms - how to train for this? [In reply to]
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climbinggirl33 wrote:
This may not be exactly "on topic" - but you also need to train the "opposing muscles" that you don't use climbing to help prevent injury. I know too many climbers kept off the rocks by tendonitis - caused by the strain of the stronger muscles pulling on the weaker muscles. This is particularly the case with forearms!!!

Agreed.

http://info.rockrun.com/articles/body-tension-training.html


(This post was edited by gethighonarock on Dec 26, 2012, 11:43 AM)


spiderman5


Jan 17, 2013, 8:56 PM
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agreed with what was said above, and I think weight training will really help you to build some strength


fskie


Feb 20, 2013, 4:17 PM
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I was in your shoes. Forearms burned too fast into a climbing gym session. It's called getting pumped. It's lactic acid buildup in the forearms. Your "pump clock" is how fast you get pumped. To lower your pump clock, as I've found out, you just have to go climbing as much as you can. Lower the time you climb, but go more frequently.

You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/. You can get them on Amazon. I have the Point Five (120 lbs) and it's really a lot, so get either the Trainer (100 lbs) or even the Sport (80 lbs). If you work at it and don't overtrain, you'll see real grip gains. I've been using these and now it isn't my forearms as much as my fingers and shoulders and tri's. Then you just climb more!


jt512


Feb 20, 2013, 10:38 PM
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Eleven years later, and the typical response is still a n00b talking out of his ass.

Jay


billcoe_


Feb 21, 2013, 5:56 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Eleven years later, and the typical response is still a n00b talking out of his ass.

Jay

Not.

fskie wrote:
I was in your shoes. Forearms burned too fast into a climbing gym session. It's called getting pumped. It's lactic acid buildup in the forearms. Your "pump clock" is how fast you get pumped. To lower your pump clock, as I've found out, you just have to go climbing as much as you can. Lower the time you climb, but go more frequently.

You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/. You can get them on Amazon. I have the Point Five (120 lbs) and it's really a lot, so get either the Trainer (100 lbs) or even the Sport (80 lbs). If you work at it and don't overtrain, you'll see real grip gains. I've been using these and now it isn't my forearms as much as my fingers and shoulders and tri's. Then you just climb more!


jt512


Feb 21, 2013, 6:00 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Eleven years later, and the typical response is still a n00b talking out of his ass.

Jay

Not.

fskie wrote:
I was in your shoes. Forearms burned too fast into a climbing gym session. It's called getting pumped. It's lactic acid buildup in the forearms. Your "pump clock" is how fast you get pumped. To lower your pump clock, as I've found out, you just have to go climbing as much as you can. Lower the time you climb, but go more frequently.

You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/. You can get them on Amazon. I have the Point Five (120 lbs) and it's really a lot, so get either the Trainer (100 lbs) or even the Sport (80 lbs). If you work at it and don't overtrain, you'll see real grip gains. I've been using these and now it isn't my forearms as much as my fingers and shoulders and tri's. Then you just climb more!

Is so.

fskie wrote:
You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/.

Jay


DouglasHunter


Feb 21, 2013, 7:56 PM
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fskie wrote:

You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/. You can get them on Amazon.

Sorry I just need to jump in here and correct this one bit of mis information. The fact that there is no relationship between isotonic and isometric forearm strength is well established is the scientific literature. Phil Watt's work from the 1990's goes into this a bit because his first attempt to measure climber's "grip strength" failed due to his using a dynamic measure of strength.

Isotonic work can, in theory, be used as part of hypertrophy training for the flexors of the wrist and fingers but doing that alone won't provide a direct benefit to climbing.

Although the OP was a bit ambiguous, its likely that what he was describing has more to do with the anaerobic endurance capabilities of his forearm muscles which is addressed most effectively through various forms of interval training. Hand squeezers, weight lifting, and cross training are not going to help.

Look through the training forum for CIR / VIR workouts to build you stamina. and then if you are a boulderer you can try doing 8 X 2 intervals. That is, 8 sets consisting of 2 boulder problems done back to back. Each set should last about 1:30 and be followed by a 1 min rest. OR you can do longer form intervals in which you do 15 - 20 boulder problems with a 30 second rest between each problem. In this case the problems will need to be very easy if you are going to make it through all the problems.

Always choose your problems in advance, use a stop-watch to time your rests and write down what you do. plan on putting in 4 week of doing these things 2 times per week in order to see a benefit. Go 6 weeks if you can.

Cheers!


jt512


Feb 21, 2013, 8:09 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
fskie wrote:

You might also look into buying a forearm trainer (gripper). I highly recommend the Captains of Crush series http://captainsofcrushgrippers.com/. You can get them on Amazon.

Sorry I just need to jump in here and correct this one bit of mis information. The fact that there is no relationship between isotonic and isometric forearm strength is well established is the scientific literature. Phil Watt's work from the 1990's goes into this a bit because his first attempt to measure climber's "grip strength" failed due to his using a dynamic measure of strength.

Isotonic work can, in theory, be used as part of hypertrophy training for the flexors of the wrist and fingers but doing that alone won't provide a direct benefit to climbing.

Although the OP was a bit ambiguous, its likely that what he was describing has more to do with the anaerobic endurance capabilities of his forearm muscles which is addressed most effectively through various forms of interval training. Hand squeezers, weight lifting, and cross training are not going to help.

Look through the training forum for CIR / VIR workouts to build you stamina. and then if you are a boulderer you can try doing 8 X 2 intervals. That is, 8 sets consisting of 2 boulder problems done back to back. Each set should last about 1:30 and be followed by a 1 min rest. OR you can do longer form intervals in which you do 15 - 20 boulder problems with a 30 second rest between each problem. In this case the problems will need to be very easy if you are going to make it through all the problems.

Always choose your problems in advance, use a stop-watch to time your rests and write down what you do. plan on putting in 4 week of doing these things 2 times per week in order to see a benefit. Go 6 weeks if you can.

Cheers!

I'm so offended that you think your response is actually better than "Is so."

Jay


DouglasHunter


Feb 21, 2013, 8:25 PM
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jt512 wrote:

I'm so offended that you think your response is actually better than "Is so."

Jay

I said exactly the same thing you said, but did it with far less economy. Isn't that better?

By the way when are we climbing together again?


(This post was edited by DouglasHunter on Feb 21, 2013, 8:34 PM)


njrox


Feb 22, 2013, 12:28 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:

Hand squeezers, weight lifting, and cross training are not going to help.

Besides climbing, are there any exercises that would benefit a climber?

Let's say someone has almost no access to a climbing gym or hangboard, but can go to a regular gym or health club...what would you have them work on while there to benefit their climbing?


redlude97


Feb 22, 2013, 1:06 PM
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njrox wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

Hand squeezers, weight lifting, and cross training are not going to help.

Besides climbing, are there any exercises that would benefit a climber?

Let's say someone has almost no access to a climbing gym or hangboard, but can go to a regular gym or health club...what would you have them work on while there to benefit their climbing?
Doorsill

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