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Old Rag VA BuLLS***
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nnowinowski


Apr 5, 2007, 5:33 AM
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Old Rag VA BuLLS***  (North_America: United_States: Virginia: North_Western: Old_Rag_Mountain)
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Since when is it ok to go to a new area complain about all the grades and inflate them, then add a new bolt to an established route just because it is hard for you. I don't want to see bolts on established routes without the FA's permission and if the FA didn't need one the default should be not to put one in even if the FA is dead and gone. Place anchors if you want but do yourself a favor and act like a "12d" trad leader and don't place chicken bolts.

The evidence:

About an 11c:
"This route is hard. I added a bolt after trying repeatedly to contact others. You can judge. Be certain you are up for the slab.

Terrific climbing for the 12 A leader. Steve"

About another 11:

"seems to require a "tree" stem
Another questionable route. Does this go at 11 w/o a tree stem?

Deal with the slime too!!"

Another 11:

"The low crux is hard--12B? Between the 2nd and 4th bolt is about 11c, a bit runout. Up high?-hang in there. More really excellent climbing."

An 11d/12a i proposed upgrading to 12b because of hold breakage over the years:

"I climb 12 B slab, and I couldn't figure out how to do about 6 ft of this thing. Maybe my imagination is limited"

you did hand drill right :-)

Sincerely,
Nate Nowinowski


Partner j_ung


Apr 5, 2007, 6:03 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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nnowinowski wrote:
About an 11c:
"This route is hard. I added a bolt after trying repeatedly to contact others. You can judge. Be certain you are up for the slab.

Terrific climbing for the 12 A leader. Steve"

WHAAAAAAAT?! Is this for real? Surely nobody is that stupid.

Though I consider myself more a trad climber than anything else, it takes a lot for me to want to see a bolt chopped. But if this is really the whole story, then my opinion, especially for Old Rag, is to remove that thang.

I'm not exactly a local, however, so take my opinion with a fat-ass grain o' salt.


cclarke


Apr 5, 2007, 6:46 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Bulls*** is right. Waaah, the routes are hard. Tough luck, get better. Adding bolts to established routes is just wrong. Who is this guy and why does he think he should alter established routes?


Partner j_ung


Apr 5, 2007, 6:56 AM
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Re: [cclarke] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Nate, where are those quotes from? The RC.com RDB?


nnowinowski


Apr 5, 2007, 6:58 AM
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yeah. I haven't actually been up there since I read this stuff yesterday.


svilnit


Apr 5, 2007, 7:02 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Crazy


Partner j_ung


Apr 5, 2007, 9:47 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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nnowinowski wrote:
yeah. I haven't actually been up there since I read this stuff yesterday.

Like I said, I'm not a local, so I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but I'm still interested. Keep us posted on what you find, willya?


moose_droppings


Apr 5, 2007, 11:18 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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You could just stay away from bolted routes and avoid your headache.

Its been argued that placing bolts along side of cracks doesn't alter the route and that if you don't like the bolts there, don't use them. I would think some of this would apply to these newly added bolts making routes "safer".
Unless this is on private property, nobody owns the routes, and respecting FA's is going the way of the Dodo bird in to many places unfortunately.
Jay's right on, its up to the majority of the climbers in the area as to what goes on with these routes and chopping should be a last resort. Do your homework and take your complaint to where the problem is.


nnowinowski


Apr 5, 2007, 11:27 AM
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see how well that moose poop sticks in the needles.


deschamps1000


Apr 5, 2007, 11:27 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Do you mind removing that bolt? Anybody that expects a grade-inflated "sport" type of experience after that long approach has no common-sense.

As an ex-local (97-01 and 04-06) I think you should remove the bolt.


moose_droppings


Apr 5, 2007, 11:46 AM
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nnowinowski wrote:
see how well that moose poop sticks in the needles.

Majority rules there too.


Partner j_ung


Apr 5, 2007, 11:56 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Jay's right on, its up to the majority of the climbers in the area as to what goes on with these routes and chopping should be a last resort.

Just for the record, if this were the New, the bolt wouldn't last and I wouldn't want it to.
Jay


stevecurtis


Jul 13, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Well: I am thankful for a reply, although admittedly, not quite the one I was looking for.

I've been at the sport for many years. The only
people I was able to contact concerning Old Rag thought I was doing a public service. sorry you don't feel that way.

Anyway, specifically concerning "The Cracking" The first time I top roped this route, a number of pieces came off the edge of the Jam. The route has not seen much traffic. With the bolt I added, it is still a necky and excellent route. Give it a go. If you still pine for a bolt free route--remove my bolt.

Concerning other routes--I've learned the rock is pretty friable in places. Furthermore, there are routes where the bolts are suspiciously close--for aiding?
Finally, please try my routes "when natural law fails", and "the holy trinity" . These were freed rope solo. I'd like feedback on what you think. Sincerely, Steve

I got home after writing this and decided to explain myself more fully.

1. Before I added the bolt on "The Cracking" I contact the person whom I considered the best known climber in the east. He tried to put me in contact with Eric Horst (whom I e-mailed repeatedly, explaining my intended transgression).

2. As a recent transplant, I love Old Rag. A little slice of Yosemite. The last thing I want to do is infuriate anyone, or endanger access. I can lead "The Cracking" without a bolt, but with terror in my gut. However--

First, I thought the route was excellent. Second, considering the rock that fractured out of the crack, I knew the route hadn't seen many ascents. Third, I thought a single bolt would improve it immensely. Long, but reasonably safe fall potential still exists at the exit.

3. I Intend to put up a few more routes. One at the reflector oven would require 2-3 bolts. Another at Jabba would require two, another at Jabba would require one, and finally, another route goes without bolts. I would add these bolts as a service to others who love to climb. If there is a consensus that bolts should not be placed anymore at Old Rag, I am fine by that.

4. I am not a local-my home is closer to Yosemite. I've been up the Nose in well under a day, and Half dome's RR in 7 hours. Not exactly earth shattering, but I am an old trad climber. In other places, people have been critical because I've not placed enough bolts.

Enough. I simple like to climb, and am willing to abide by consensus. Sincerely


(This post was edited by stevecurtis on Jul 13, 2007, 2:51 PM)


yekcir


Jul 14, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Re: [stevecurtis] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Steve,

I'm one of the guys you met out at Rag in the late winter/early spring. I was there the day you put the bolt up on Crackin' and you've got my support. I've been eyeing this line for a while and, although it may be over my head right now, I'm gunning for it one day. That bolt is well placed. It doesn't detract from the climb, but instead, makes the stellar, exposed crack above accessible.

Look at Old Rag as a climbing area for a second. It's fairly unpopular cause of the approach, the rock is incredible, and the park is owned by the park service, who keeps a pretty close eye on climbing there in general (I've been approached by the ranger on multiple occasions). The last thing this area needs is an injury with the associated evac, and this bolt in particular will help avoid that when someone decides to do this climb.

I'm not the first ascentionist. I haven't put up a climb there. I have been there more times than I can count and I attest to Steve's respect for the local ethic, effort in learning about the crag, and forthright attitude in adding any fixed protection to Old Rag granite.


cclarke


Jul 16, 2007, 8:58 AM
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Re: [stevecurtis] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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Hi Steve-

Did you think to post here before you bolted?

While I'm no local authority, I've climbed regularly at Old Rag for more than 20 years and know most of the guys who have done the FAs. I don't think it's proper to add bolts to existing climbs even if it improves them. As you noted, the route could be toproped so it's not like it couldn't be enjoyed by anyone who wasn't up to leading it as it was. Also, it's not like you couldn't find unclimbed rock in the area to put up routes as you think they should be protected.

With respect to new routes, I think you need to get the current policy from the park service and follow it. I'm pretty certain that power drilling is forbidden but I don't know about hand drilling. If bolting is allowed, I trust you'll bolt wisely and put up good routes. If the lines on Jabba are what I think they are, good luck!

Where are "when natural law fails" and "the holy trinity"?

Take care,

Chris


nnowinowski


Jul 16, 2007, 11:43 AM
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Re: [stevecurtis] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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I am all for attempting to contact the fa and in lieu of the fa asking for the bolt to be removed, having the bolt stand.

Just my vote after considering.

cheers,

Nate


cclarke


Jul 16, 2007, 12:45 PM
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I believe the first ascensionists were Alex Karr and Mike Kehoe.

I don't believe in adding bolts to existing routes but I'm not going to start chopping bolts either.


dreday3000


Feb 7, 2012, 7:29 PM
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Re: [stevecurtis] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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This is an old thread - and I don't mean to re-open a can of worms - but I thought I'd share my recent experience on the Crackling.

A few weeks ago, I got on the route for the first time. I wasn't aware of any controversy so I clipped the bolt happily and went along my merry way.

7 feet later, I ripped a fist size chunk of rock off the main flake and whipped onto the bolt. It took me totally by surprise - that flaked looked super bomber and I wouldn't have thought twice about putting pro behind it. In fact that's exactly what I did. This is the main flake we're talking about so you have to pro it to ascend the route.


In retrospect - sitting in the comfort of my living room, i"m pretty sure you could place a bomber # 2 cam close to the bolt. That said, due to the suspect nature of the rock, I'm damn glad the bolt was there. The rock below the bolt is friable and if the any protection fails you could be looking at a very nasty ground fall.

So thanks Steve. You may have saved my bacon.


stevecurtis wrote:
Well: I am thankful for a reply, although admittedly, not quite the one I was looking for.

I've been at the sport for many years. The only
people I was able to contact concerning Old Rag thought I was doing a public service. sorry you don't feel that way.

Anyway, specifically concerning "The Cracking" The first time I top roped this route, a number of pieces came off the edge of the Jam. The route has not seen much traffic. With the bolt I added, it is still a necky and excellent route. Give it a go. If you still pine for a bolt free route--remove my bolt.

Concerning other routes--I've learned the rock is pretty friable in places. Furthermore, there are routes where the bolts are suspiciously close--for aiding?
Finally, please try my routes "when natural law fails", and "the holy trinity" . These were freed rope solo. I'd like feedback on what you think. Sincerely, Steve

I got home after writing this and decided to explain myself more fully.

1. Before I added the bolt on "The Cracking" I contact the person whom I considered the best known climber in the east. He tried to put me in contact with Eric Horst (whom I e-mailed repeatedly, explaining my intended transgression).

2. As a recent transplant, I love Old Rag. A little slice of Yosemite. The last thing I want to do is infuriate anyone, or endanger access. I can lead "The Cracking" without a bolt, but with terror in my gut. However--

First, I thought the route was excellent. Second, considering the rock that fractured out of the crack, I knew the route hadn't seen many ascents. Third, I thought a single bolt would improve it immensely. Long, but reasonably safe fall potential still exists at the exit.

3. I Intend to put up a few more routes. One at the reflector oven would require 2-3 bolts. Another at Jabba would require two, another at Jabba would require one, and finally, another route goes without bolts. I would add these bolts as a service to others who love to climb. If there is a consensus that bolts should not be placed anymore at Old Rag, I am fine by that.

4. I am not a local-my home is closer to Yosemite. I've been up the Nose in well under a day, and Half dome's RR in 7 hours. Not exactly earth shattering, but I am an old trad climber. In other places, people have been critical because I've not placed enough bolts.

Enough. I simple like to climb, and am willing to abide by consensus. Sincerely


cclarke


Feb 8, 2012, 8:07 AM
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Re: [dreday3000] Old Rag VA BuLLS*** [In reply to]
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The name of this route is The Crackin'.


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