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cuchulainn1856
Mar 28, 2007, 9:01 PM
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To start, I'm a bigger guy. I'm 6'2", weigh about 204 or so. BUT most of said weight comes from lifting weights all the time. my question is: does core weight trainging (deadlift, benchpress, squats, powerclean, etc.) help at all for training, or should i be doing MORE of uper body, like forearm, pullups, dips, etc. i already do all of these, but I'm trying to tweak the lifting schedule to help with climbing. if anyone else out there climbs and weighs more than 190, they know that it takes a lot of upper body strength and requires even more grip training to keep our heavier frames up for longer.
If anyone has any tips, that'd be great. 
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suzie_cuzie
Mar 28, 2007, 9:20 PM
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The fellow that gave me and my friends our belay lesson told us that core strength is very important, particularly on overhangs. And I know my abs and lovehandles feel it after every time I climb, so I think there was definitely some merit to what he was saying.
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shimanilami
Mar 28, 2007, 9:33 PM
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I'll bite ...
Anyone would be hard pressed to claim that standard weight training does not help with climbing. It's better than nothing, that is for sure. But climbing strength is very specific (i.e. hand strength, strength-to-weight ratio, core strength, upper body aerobic capacity, etc.). Further, weight lifting in repetitive, controlled motions simply cannot simulate the actions you go through when climbing. Thus, most will suggest that rather than tweak your weight training program, you might see greater gains if you take a day off of lifting and spend it climbing instead.
There are a lot of threads on this topic already, and a number of books on the subject also. I suggest you do some research on your own. It is unlikely that many will be interested in rehashing the subject now, just for you.
Good luck.
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grimace8777
Mar 28, 2007, 10:22 PM
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I too am a bigger climber who has been into weight lifting for several years now. 5'11" and was 198 this morning with a body fat % of 13 last time it was checked.
Over the years I have found that the single most beneficial training item that has helped me with climbing is climbing. That may sound cliche but I have done all kinds of different weight lifting routines but once I started climbing in the gym a few days a week with a structured program, (like the ones in "The self coached climber" or "Performance Rock Climbing) a significant improvement was made. I never wanted to climb indoors but was very happy once I saw how much it has helped outdoors.
I still lift weights 4 times a week just because I love to but I think the help it provides climbing wise is minimal but the help I have gotten from a structured progam was much more valuable. Also, like mentioned above if you search this forum the topic has been discussed before. Good luck.
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deadhorse
Mar 29, 2007, 6:14 AM
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I'm definitely not a "big" guy at 6'1" 180 (now) but used to lift alot, and never saw suuper evident gains in my climbing, although like (it sounds) you, my lift regimen was not tailored for climb benefits. I've been running lately and that's noticeably helping my conditioning/energy reserve.
but if you were to tailor your regimen for climbing I would say up the reps, and with more sets, because it's going to be endurance that pulls you through. Also, clean, dead lift, squat, I really don't think those are much help. Specific targeting like hip flexor (for arete/compression) hams (heelhooks) working the shit out of your traps, and tons of forearm ABUSE- reverse wrist curls etc seems like it would do the trick if there's one to be had...
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anykineclimb
Mar 29, 2007, 6:22 AM
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you're actually not THAT heavy. (been around bigger dudes) I'd say keep with your weighlifting. if you like that routine, check out crossfit, it has the same movements but thow in more "cardio" type work.
get on the rock too as that will help you the most
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c_plante
Apr 13, 2007, 4:13 PM
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I am a big climber...
6'5'' 300 pounds, I mostly do 10c's but the occassional d.
What do I do? Mostly I climb, but I also sprint up staircases. I was weight training for a while but I found that it was hindering me. Before everyone jumps on me, I fully admit that I was probably doing the wrong excersises. The end result was that I had gained a lot of strength in the areas I worked on but when it came to climbing I was still weak.
It's hard to replicate a bouldering traverse or a good dyno, in a standard gym. And when you try you end up getting yelled at by the employees.
My advice: Keep climbing.
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treyfrancisclimbs
Apr 13, 2007, 5:00 PM
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I am 6'4 and rocking right around 225 right now. I try to lift 4 days a week as well as throwing in 4 days of cardio to match. I have found that when I have trained really hard with just climbing I had a tendency to have more finger injuries and more tendonitis. I am now in the process of trying to drop down to 210 or so by altering my weight training a little. I still want to maintain my muscle mass, but want to lose any excess body fat I can. In the recent issue of Muscle and fitness there is an article and lifting program for burning fat and retaining muscle that involves a pretty intense regimen of supersets.
The program can be either 4 or 8 weeks, with the exercises and supersets changing after one or two weeks respectively. You are forced to use lower weight and end up doing many reps, but still have great gains in strength without gaining a lot of muscle mass. Also, the short rest intervals and taking each set to failure insures that you are building massive muscle endurance as well as getting a fair amount of cardio training at the same time. After two weeks of this supersetting and 4 days a week of cardio I have lost 7-8 pounds and one notch on my belt. It seems to help overall endurance and performance while climbing too.
I still plan on climbing 2-3 times a week in order to get my forearms and other climbing specific muscles into better shape, but this type of lifting has made a big difference overall. If you have any questions or want me to send you the workout just PM me.
(This post was edited by treyfrancisclimbs on Apr 13, 2007, 6:45 PM)
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legsforarms
Sep 30, 2007, 3:04 AM
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Im 6' 210 lbs. I have climbed and bouldered in the 5.13/v9 range for a long time. I think your weight lifting workouts sound like what I do to balance my climbing. I do not do any climbing specific training in teh weight room but try to balance by doing deadlifts, squats, bench, curls in the weight room. If you want to improve your climbing spend time bouldering and doing routes in sets of 2 or 3 rather then teh typical gym routine of single laps on routes.
Remember your weight will make the skin and tendons sore and to progress slowly. use your feet.
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N_Oo_B
Sep 30, 2007, 5:44 AM
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210 doing v9's ... ouch... imagine what your tendons could do if you dropped some of that muscle mass? I feel for you guys though, i started at 190 this winter and dropped to mid 160's...a huge amount of that was muscle mass, but jeez it's so much easier on my tendons/forearms. wasted muscle mass is just crap you're hauling up the rock.
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aerili
Oct 3, 2007, 11:21 PM
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cuchulainn1856 wrote: BUT most of said weight comes from lifting weights all the time. my question is: does core weight trainging (deadlift, benchpress, squats, powerclean, etc.) help at all for training, or should i be doing MORE of uper body, like forearm, pullups, dips, etc. i already do all of these, but I'm trying to tweak the lifting schedule to help with climbing.
I think squats, deadlifts and certain other total body Olympic-style lifts are very good exercises (when done without compensations) for teaching and maintaining healthy synergistic firing patterns in the body's core musculature. Although not directly specific to improved climbing, they still upgrade your general fitness which makes up the foundation for more specific training.
Grip strength in climbing movements seems exceptionally specific to me; I am not sure I think the same kind of gains can be found in using other methods like putty, squeezing balls, etc. Maybe it can, but all I know is that my climbing grip strength sure doesn't help me loosen those damn screw adjustments on the weight equipment after you men come along and overtighten them!  
P.S. Are you really the Irish hero of ancient lore minus the genes that must have made him good at everything? ha ha
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glacierskilledmyclimbing
Oct 3, 2007, 11:45 PM
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Yea dude, I hear ya on that one. I'm 6' 2" and 194 7% body fat and everyone I know doesn't understand why I'd rather be more medium sized for climbing. Recently I've been doing a push-up/pull-up/dips type of routine and that has been helping a lot, so maybe try that? Honestly though when I was climbing 3 or 4 times a week I was getting to the 5.11c/d range and working VERY FEW 5.12a's. But after reading one of the earlier posts from the 6' 210 guy that climbed 5.13/v9 I was happy that there is hope for us all!
p.s. good luck to you and every other big climber out there!
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legsforarms
Oct 4, 2007, 12:42 AM
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Hell, Id love to weigh 175 im just not that thin and I dont like to diet. At this point im starting to shoot for double digit boulder problems and heres my plan. First Im going to spend a lot of time bouldering volume. Bouldering develops strength but by doing 30+ medium difficulty problems it also develops endurance and tendon strength without over stressing things like max difficulty problems can do. Then second and third day on do doubles or tripples on routes in increasing difficulty routes ( 10, 11, 12 or whatever ) pick routes that you can do this on - usually well below your best level. I think you will be suprised at the gains you get from this kind of training. Being 200+ means campusing etc isnt the smartest approach... go for volume and mix it up. I usually climb 3 hours a session and do that 4-5 nights a week.
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norsk
Oct 4, 2007, 1:29 AM
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I'll share my personal experience and the decisions I have made, and give my advice.
I was a dedicated bodybuilder for about 8 years before I got into climbing. Depending on the year, I was anywhere from 200-225 pounds (at 6'3"). Not that I ever competed, but I trained *hard*, dieted, and did/took everything non-competing bodybuilders should do. Not long after I decided I wanted to get better at climbing, I realized that deadlifting 500+ pounds, squating 400, and benching 300 wouldn't help me, so I stopped bodybuilding per se and switched to just trying to 'maintain' my muscle mass. Then a bit later I cut back even more to high rep low weight stuff trying to lose some of my bulk (i.e. muscle weight). About that time I decided to become ver serious about climbing. It was hard to do after dedicating 8 years of my life, but I stopped dieting and working out with weights 'cold turkey'.
It has now been about 6 months since I have been to the weight gym. My climbing has skyrocketed, and in all honesty my body really doesn't look all that different. I mean, I can look in a mirror and see the differences, but I doubt that an 'average' person would be able to tell any difference. I weigh anywhere from 195-205, and my body fat % has probably only increased about 3% or so.
Of course my climbing has not improved only because of my stopping weight training. But, it is my firm opinion, based on not only my personal experience but also reading all the climbing training books, that for an upper-intermediate or advanced climber (i.e. onsight leading at least mid 5.10s comfortably) weight training will IN NO WAY help you become a better climber. Perhaps doing body weight exercises (pullups, pushups, etc.) will, but NOT weights. If, on the other hand, you are not at this level yet, then weights might help you to the extent that they contribute to your general, overall fitness.
Plus, I have found that having a solid base of absolute arm and back strength can be helpful in some situations. For example, I can campus all day long on good jugs. But, the downside of being heavier is that I cannot campus (not even close) on normal (i.e. Metolius) campus rungs. So, I try to use my strength to my advantage while simultaneously trying to reduce my overall muscle mass, especially mass that doesn't help me climbing.
So, long story short, if you are or want to be serious about climbing, you need to stop any sort of 'heavy' weight training, if not all weight training. If, on the other hand, you want to be a casual climber, then continue the weight training if you want to.
Like all things, in the end practice your life in a manner that will help you meet your goals, what ever they may be.
I hope this is helpful.
Oh, I have never found my core strength to be limited in a climbing situation (e.g. pulling myself into a serverly overhanging route, or locking off a hold) because I no longer deadlift.
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rhythm164
Oct 4, 2007, 1:58 AM
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I saw crossfit mentioned, I have a climbng buddy that swears up and down that crossfit is the best thing in the world. I havn't tried it, but it might be worth looking into.
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N_Oo_B
Oct 4, 2007, 2:47 AM
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...space that post out... what a jumbled mess of text.
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curt
Oct 4, 2007, 2:55 AM
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N_Oo_B wrote: 210 doing v9's ... ouch... imagine what your tendons could do if you dropped some of that muscle mass? I feel for you guys though, i started at 190 this winter and dropped to mid 160's...a huge amount of that was muscle mass, but jeez it's so much easier on my tendons/forearms. wasted muscle mass is just crap you're hauling up the rock.
I've done a bit of climbing with a guy who is 6' 7" tall and 235 pounds--and he also boulders V9 and climbs 5.13. The amazing thing is that he is very good at small hold problems.
Curt
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knieveltech
Oct 4, 2007, 3:13 AM
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I feel your pain at 6' 200lb. When I started climbing I weighed in at around 175 lb. I haven't done a lick of weight training and have actually cleaned up my diet a bit and lowered my bodyfat percentage by a couple of points, but after 10 months of climbing I've put on 25 lb of muscle. It's inspirational to hear about another heavy climber rocking the .13's, gives me hope!
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jdugz
Oct 5, 2007, 5:04 AM
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i am 235 6'6" I climb a weak 5.9 right now. I just started this summer. I am not fat but def not cut. I don't go to the gym or anything. I just climb. My advice is screw the gym and climb all day every day. get a hangboard at home and build a small wall to practice ridiculous moves on. work on your footwork and technique.
Climbing is not about being jacked its about climbing. Although the strength helps it comes naturally as you climb. I hope to lock down 5.9 and close in on 5.10 soon and i don't plan on stopping for anyone. I love it.
Keep making those big reaches my friend.
I'm curious as to what grade you are at?
and where you climb/ bouldering/or ropes/gym rat?
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hrtmnstrfr
Oct 5, 2007, 3:03 PM
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Hey, I am also a bigger climber. I am 6'1" and 205 lbs. I used to just climb but about 6 months ago I started doing crossfit (Olympic lifts, dead lifts, gymnastics) and my climbing went through the roof. Where as before I could boulder V1 I now routinely flash V3 and work V5. In only six months time! I believe the core strength I gained from these workouts is to blame. But, all that being said, I lost weight when I start lifting. If you have a lot of thick muscle and aren't very flexible it may be holding you back.
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richy
Oct 5, 2007, 4:00 PM
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I recommend checking out Mark Twight's site
http://www.gymjones.com/
He's taken the crossfit template and made it Twight extreme. He's all about strength to weight ratio. You heavier guys know that if you weigh less, the climbing will be easier. Cardio is probably the answer your looking for, although it sucks to stick with it.
It's not just your technique you should be worried about, more weight=more force on pro.
Dude your not fat, your just bomber
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