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abkaiser
Sep 24, 2002, 3:31 PM
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I'm tossing around the idea of going to a vegetarian diet. Not because I want to be nice to animals (humans *are* the top of the food chain, and are therefore allowed to eat all the steak they want), but because I want to be healthier. However, vegetarian would also mean I'm almost stopping protein intake, and other minerals and vitamins I need. What suppliments do y'all vegetarian / vegan climbers use?
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gunkjunkie
Sep 24, 2002, 3:47 PM
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Hi - Doesn't mean that you're not going to be eating very much protein anymore. Protein is necessary and can be obtained by eating beans, whole grains, lentils, soy, quinoa and seitan. Deirdre [ This Message was edited by: gunkjunkie on 2002-09-24 08:47 ]
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seeking8a
Sep 24, 2002, 3:56 PM
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Interesting post. I have been vegan for over 6 years and vegetarian before that. I started out doing it for health but I adopted many of the ethical and environmental reasons as well. Unlike you, I do not think people have the right to tortune, drug, or mutilate other living beings just because we have the ability to do so or because it is a convenient food source. A completely vegan diet will give you all of the vitamins and minerals you need with the exception of B12 which is a type of bacteria that is hard to get in the US because things are a lot cleaner. That being said I still take a multi-vitamin (as anyone should) just to make sure I get enough of everything. As far as protien, this is a highly contraversial issue that many professionals do not even agree about. Most americans get too much protien as evidenced by various disease patterns. But if you are bent on taking in a lot of protien, try various tofu products. They even sell soy protien powder. Good luck. A great book is the Food Revolution by John Robbins. It contains numerous medical studies and case studies pertaining to vegetarian diets. It also has a large section on how animals are treated before they are consumed. I challenge anyone to read the book and then tell me that animals are not tortured. It is also pretty scary to learn about all of the things that are injected into animals (glad I don't eat meat).
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pbjosh
Sep 24, 2002, 4:02 PM
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Vegetarianism by no means implies stopping protein intake. I'm mostly a vegetarian though I occaisonally eat fish tacos. I mostly just don't like the taste of meat (beer batter hides the taste of the fish effectively, heh) and I don't like all the hormones/etc in meat at most restaurants. Being vegan would make getting enough protein somewhat harder for me as I love cheese and I'm frankly too lazy to watch the content of my food THAT closely though vegans can certainly get plenty of protein, so these comments relate to those that consume at least dairy products, if not eggs. Here's what I may eat in a typical day where I want to get a lot of protein: Large bean & cheese burrito from a taco shop, probably at least 25g of protein, maybe more. At least a quart of milk. At 1g/oz that's 32 grams of protein. Probably 1/2 cup nuts (almonds, walnuts, cashews) - 15-20 grams Veggie burger and fries for a big dinner - 20 grams maybe. That's already in the 80-100g which is way above the USRDA of .8 g/kg/day (56g/day for me at 155 lbs (70kg)). Then through in a bunch of random snacks and the total gets even higher. Just make sure you balance out proteins. With the exception of soybeans, beans and legumes are low methionine and high lysine and grains are the opposite. Thus the "balanced protein" issue for vegetarians of eating beans and rice or beans and corn or whatever. Take it easy... josh [ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2002-09-24 09:03 ]
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peas
Sep 24, 2002, 4:03 PM
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I was vegan for 2 years and am vegetarian now, for a total of 5 years. I don't take any supplements, and try to eat a balanced diet, but sometimes it doesn't work out quite as planned. When I eat, I keep in mind what my sources of protein are and I try to mix them up. I also try to keep track of things like calcium and iron intake and when I was vegan I was concerned with B12. After a year of being vegan I went in to get my blood checked to make sure I was not lacking anything and the doctor told me that he wouldn't be able to tell my blood work apart from a non-veg*n. Anyways, eating a balanced veg diet seems to work for me.
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seeking8a
Sep 24, 2002, 4:05 PM
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Josh, The concept of food combining for complete protiens was a myth in the 70s, the author of diet for a small planet even apologized for confusing people. Everyone now knows that you can eat rice in one meal and beans two weeks later and your body will combine the protien fine. I hate to see this kind of misinformation spread.
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mightymouse7
Sep 24, 2002, 4:09 PM
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God I hate hippies.
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bsperes
Sep 24, 2002, 4:18 PM
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mmmm...steak
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pbjosh
Sep 24, 2002, 4:21 PM
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seeking8a - Sorry if I implied you had to eat it in one sitting. I generally do not watch the balance of what I eat at that level and I agree that though you need to get a good balance of amino acids you don't need to get them all in every meal. That said my form of "balance" is that I try to get enough veggies, protein, chocolate, french fries and a salad every day josh
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thrillseeker05
Sep 24, 2002, 4:40 PM
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As you can see there are a ton of vegetarians in the climbing world. I am not a vegetarian but one of my climbing partners is. Being vegetarian fits really nicely with being a climber as we are always on the go. Meat is too hard to store in a cooler all the time and takes so long to prep. So we have adopted the lifestyle, yet will have meat on occasion at a restaurant. With that said I just wanted to assure you that you can get all your vitamins and proteins your body will need if you chose to go this route. Shoot you can simply eat a cliff bar or luna bar if you want. One of the best things is that you open your plate up to so many different cultural food types in search of different ways to prepare a vegetarian meal. So have fun with it!
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dondiego
Sep 24, 2002, 4:47 PM
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If we weren't supposed to eat cows, how come they're made of steak! How many vegetables had to die for your stupid salad! Couple of quotes I saw today on t-shirts. Thought it would fit. -D D-
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styndall
Sep 24, 2002, 4:55 PM
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I'm a vegetarian, and it's helped with climbing a decent bit. I've cut my bodyfat, largely thanks to the lack of fats in my diet, and kept up with vegetable proteins without any trouble. I also get more calcium out of leafy greens that I wouldn't otherwise have eaten so much of. It's a good way to be, honestly. Oh, and from what I've noticed, your sweat will smell a little different after a while - it won't be as caustic as it is. Stephen Tyndall
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orbizy
Sep 24, 2002, 5:03 PM
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"Human are on top of the food chain." Technology is no substitute for a lack of biology. Humans by no means are on top of the food chain simply because we have huge corp. and giant machines to murdur animals for us. To be up there, you need muscle, agility, the ability to hunt with your own body. If you ever run into a mountain lion, take a look at your comparably weak, thin skinned body and see if you come up with the same conclusion. -Matin
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wlderdude
Sep 24, 2002, 5:06 PM
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SHure there are vegetaian climbers, but how amny vegetarian hunters are there? I am really skeptical when it comes to nutrition "science." There are so many personal biases, ethics, tastes and concepts that it gets hard to tell when any real facts are doctored. Not to mention that there are too many phantom variables to perform conclusive studies in many of these matters. The placebo effect can be very powerful. How can you really do any long term scientific studies with diets? Even if you could convince somone ot eat white mush with an exerimental and a control group, you couldn't get enough people to do it long enough to really discover anyhting. It does not take long to see that concesuses on nutrition are VERY RARE. Many sciences have slightly better exerimental tecniques that allow for repeatabilty and have better defined "facts", but many do not. Just be carefull. My personal take is that our bodies are designed for eating both meat and plants. Both are natural and good for me. Don't let any moron convice you that eating meat is not natural for ominvors. My appologies to any rabbits out there. It is natural for you to eat only veggies.
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styndall
Sep 24, 2002, 5:09 PM
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I'm a vegetarian, and it's helped with climbing a decent bit. I've cut my bodyfat, largely thanks to the lack of fats in my diet, and kept up with vegetable proteins without any trouble. I also get more calcium out of leafy greens that I wouldn't otherwise have eaten so much of. It's a good way to be, honestly. Oh, and from what I've noticed, your sweat will smell a little different after a while - it won't be as caustic as it is. Stephen Tyndall
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dondiego
Sep 24, 2002, 5:15 PM
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I don't need to be strong, I have a gun. That's like saying that sharks shouldn't use their teeth to hunt because it's not fair. -D D-
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bsperes
Sep 24, 2002, 5:26 PM
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bingo Refer to picture in Simpson's episode, man in the center with arrows from all other animals going towards his mouth.
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mountainmonkey
Sep 24, 2002, 5:31 PM
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I like this: "...because I want to be healthier. However, vegetarian would also mean I'm almost stopping protein intake, and other minerals and vitamins I need." You can be healthy and eat meat. Eat fish if you are worried about gaining weight or cholesterol. I hope you see the mistake you will be making - you have to have a very stringent diet to get the necessary nutrients your body needs when you neglect meat. It is so much simpler to do what humans have done for all of time to keep healthy.
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peas
Sep 24, 2002, 5:51 PM
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Thanks to mountainmonkey for pointing that contradiction out. I thought that was funny too. But he also says that you "have to have a very stringent diet", which I disagree with. You only have to be aware of the nutrition issues involved with being vegetarian and how to deal with them. Once you have that figured out, you won't put any more effort into being vegetarian than you would into having meat in your diet. [ This Message was edited by: peas on 2002-09-24 10:52 ]
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deafclimber
Sep 24, 2002, 6:32 PM
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no, i am a meat lover...
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bluesky
Sep 24, 2002, 6:44 PM
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I would like to add a few points to this discussion: 1) It is a Myth that a vegetarian diet lacks protein and the necessary nutrition to provide for a powerful healthy body. Counterexample to oppose this Myth: Mr. Olympia 1976 Franco Columbo popped steroids and ate loads of meat in the early 70's. Health problems caused him to switch to a chicken/fish + veggie diet. By the time he won the Mr. Olympia he was a vegetarian and was a powerful and healthy 220+ pounds (this is from his book on weight training). 2) I'm glad to see others here point out it isn't hard to maintain proper nutrition ona vegetarian diet. 3) I come from a hunting and fishing background and grew up happily eating meat with every meal. Yet now I find that the typical steak or other animal product at the grocery store is a hidden source of health woes for yourself and many others. I highly recommend those looking for personal health benefits to consider eliminating (at the least) non-organically produced animal products from their diets. Considering the pesticides, herbicides and hormones that are used in the mass produced animal product industry and the simple biological phenomenon of concentration of toxicity further up the food chain makes eating lower on the food chain a healthy choice. There is plenty of info out there - just do some research. If you make this choice for yourself you might even be helping the whole grand scheme of things too, rather than participating in the tunnel vision state of our consumer driven society. Jesse
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abkaiser
Sep 24, 2002, 6:48 PM
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"You can be healthy and eat meat. Eat fish if you are worried about gaining weight or cholesterol." Sorry, I should have been more clear: I wanted to be healthier in that I'd take in less fat and grease and bad things for my heart. I also want to do this for weight loss. I'm leaning toward the "no meat, but fish are okay" theory. "Humans by no means are on top of the food chain simply because we have huge corp. and giant machines to murdur animals for us. To be up there, you need muscle, agility, the ability to hunt with your own body. If you ever run into a mountain lion, take a look at your comparably weak, thin skinned body and see if you come up with the same conclusion." I'd disagree with this. What sets humans apart is the ability to mold the world around them, and use tools. You can use the same comparison with the mountain lion - compare its brain to ours. Compare our opposable thumbs to its paws. We're designed better for survival and warfare because while our bodies are weaker, we can create tools to overcome that weakness. Based on that, I'd state humans are indeed the top of the food chain. It's a difference of opinion, I guess. It's humans-as-a-physical-animal versus humans-as-a-toolmaker. [ This Message was edited by: abkaiser on 2002-09-24 12:41 ]
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djmacedonas
Sep 24, 2002, 9:05 PM
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Man... There is a lot of misinformation here. First of all, B12 is not a bacterium, it is an essential vitamin that can only be supplied to humans by the intake of meat, disproving all vegetarian mantras that humans were never meant to eat meat. That said, humans were never meant to eat the kind of mass produced meat garbage that is sold in plastic wrap in our supermarkets either. Do some research and you will find that our meat comes from animals that are, in fact, treated horribly. And treated with garbage that is also not good for us. On the other hand, so are our fruits and vegetables (pesticides, weed killers, wax, etc.). Fact is, if we all ate the amounts of meat (or fish) that are naturally required for our survival, it would truly be a small impact on the worlds animals and environment. The classic mediterranean diet for example calls for the eating of fish a few times per month, meat maybe 3-4 times a year. The world would be a much better place if EVERYONE at this way rather than 10% of the Western populattion being vegeterian and 80+% of the population eating meat EVERY DAY (or in some cases, EVERY MEAL). Then there is this gem: "Technology is no substitute for a lack of biology. Humans by no means are on top of the food chain simply because we have huge corp. and giant machines to murdur animals for us. To be up there, you need muscle, agility, the ability to hunt with your own body. If you ever run into a mountain lion, take a look at your comparably weak, thin skinned body and see if you come up with the same conclusion" Sorry, I come up with a different conclusion: Fact is, Humans have been hunting with their "own body" for time immemorial. Ask many African tribes. Fact is that there is no other animal that can out run us in an endurance race. These ancient tribes hunted a herd for days to weeks, killing the stragglers as they fell behind, not being able to cover the kind of mileage a human could. Fact is, there is no other mammal that is as adaptable as we are, that can survive the range of temperatures that we can, nor the range of altitude, nor the kinds of depth, nor climb as we can. There are creatures that can do each and everyone of these things better (i.e. Whales for diving, geckos for climbing) but NONE that can do ALL OF THESE like we can. We are masters of nothing but capable of everything. If you think the human form is 'weak', perhaps you should rethink your choice of sport. (I'll challenge any Mt. Lion on a 5.10 climb or an endurance race any day of the week). djm [ This Message was edited by: djmacedonas on 2002-09-24 14:08 ] [ This Message was edited by: djmacedonas on 2002-09-24 14:09 ]
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bluesky
Sep 24, 2002, 9:24 PM
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On B12. There was a study on a vegan group in iran that concluded they got enough B12 from human feces mixed into their soil. Don't try that at home - bleech. On a practical note. B12 problems are more likely for those with digestive problems (like those with gluten/wheat problems) or long long time vegans than the rest of us. Can take years for vegan diet to cause B12 problems, so just look for vegan B12 supplemented food, or eat a little meat here and there. Info like this here: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml
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djmacedonas
Sep 24, 2002, 9:32 PM
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Another good source of B12 is yeast. If you homebrew just eat the sludge at the bottom of your fermenter. Or, if you live down under... eat vegimite (sp?). DJM
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