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hosh
May 17, 2007, 2:10 PM
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I fixed a pin right before the meat of the climb on the trad line at Fritz Cove. I'm not sure that anyone reading this will care, but it's in response to an incident that happened a while back. If any one has an issue with the pin, let me know and I'll remove it. But I think this may be a safer way to make sure that climbers have a good piece of gear before they start off into the crack.
hosh.
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2007, 2:16 PM
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By been a good citizen to climbing community you just labeled yourself as the responsible person if that pin comes out.
Just do it and do not tell people you did it.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 17, 2007, 4:25 PM)
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hosh
May 17, 2007, 3:43 PM
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It's pretty solid (at least unless someone messed with it). I pounded it in pretty well, and tested it with some considerable force. it didn't even flinch. It's in there. And it's set in a horizontal crack, so down-ward force shouldn't be a problem. If it pulls, well, I don't know what to tell you. Bolts pull too, i guess... I would like to place a bolt a little lower on that climb just to make it a little safer (so there's not 30+ feet of run out before the pin), but I don't have a bolting kit or the time to bolt. If there's someone in Juneau with a bolting kit who's reading this, wanna place a good bolt on that climb? PS, the bolts on the sport climb next to it are getting a little rusty and scary as well...
hosh.
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chossmonkey
May 17, 2007, 4:15 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: By been a good citizen to climbing community you just labeled yourself as the responsible person if that pin comes out. Just do it and do not people you did it.
As is someone who jumps on a trad route at their limit as their first lead.
(This post was edited by chossmonkey on May 17, 2007, 4:23 PM)
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2007, 4:22 PM
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[quote} Anyone who clips a pin and doesn't test it or back it up is putting their fate in their own hands.
You are trying to be logical but, hardcore evidence indicates that most people just clip and move on to next point because they believe some one else already checked the protection the day before.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 17, 2007, 4:26 PM)
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chossmonkey
May 17, 2007, 4:26 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: chossmonkey wrote: majid_sabet wrote: By been a good citizen to climbing community you just labeled yourself as the responsible person if that pin comes out. Just do it and do not people you did it. Anyone who clips a pin and doesn't test it or back it up is putting their fate in their own hands. You are trying to be logical but, hardcore evidence indicates that most people just clip and move on to next point because they believe some one else already checked the protection the day before.
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ja1484
May 17, 2007, 4:36 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: Yes and they are idiots. You cannot protect idiots from themselves. Someone who tries and fails to protect an idiot can hardley be held responsible.
This is kind of my position on the situation.
If:
1) The climber can't arrange adequate protection through his own skill while leading the climb
or
2) The climber can't keep his shit together on a climb of that grade until he CAN arrange adequate protection
Then he/she/it shouldn't be on the route, simple as that. Judgement is the most important skill a climber, especially a trad climber, has. If it's not well protected and you're not confident that that's not a problem, then you bail.
I respect the good intentions of placing that pin, but I don't think you can make a route safer by design. As we all know, safety comes from the climber's proper use of the equipment, and his/her sound judgement. If either of those are lacking, bomber protection isn't possible.
My $.o2
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hosh
May 17, 2007, 5:14 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Judgment is the most important skill a climber, especially a trad climber, has. If it's not well protected and you're not confident that that's not a problem, then you bail.
Yes, but on this particular climb, there's no gear that's worth placing on the bottom half, so if you need to bail, then it's down climbing or you continue until you get to the fixed pin.
ja1484 wrote: I respect the good intentions of placing that pin, but I don't think you can make a route safer by design. As we all know, safety comes from the climber's proper use of the equipment, and his/her sound judgment. If either of those are lacking, bomber protection isn't possible.
True. I can't make a climb "safer by design", but I can attempt to make a run out a little safer since there's going to be people who try this climb (like the guy I saw there a few weeks ago) when everyone but them knows that the climb is over their limits. This guy was clipped in to the pin that I fixed and he did fall. I'm convinced that he would have decked had he not been clipped to the pin, as the nut he had placed was in a parallel crack and wasn't that solid (I know because I cleaned it after he left). So I think that there may be a "ethical" issue about whether people should be climbing this line if they can't protect it, but on the other hand, I'd rather put a pin there and have people stay off the deck than have n00bs deck and end up in the hospital and compromise our access to this crag.
hosh.
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ja1484
May 17, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Fair enough. Just my opinion. I do have one question though - why not a bolt? They tend to weather better.
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healyje
May 17, 2007, 10:34 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Fair enough. Just my opinion. I do have one question though - why not a bolt? They tend to weather better.
Depends on the rock, pins perform fine in ours and only SS bolts weather better.
But, despite what I consider good, but entirely misguided intent, the climb should have been left as the FA's did it. Risk - the perception and assumption of it - are core to what climbing is all about. Too bad someone used bad judgment in the incident you cited as your reason for putting in the fixed pro on the route, but to be honest I'd pull it if I were a local. Saving people from themselves at the expense of routes is a losing proposition for all concerned - hopefully climbing will never be risk-free.
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jakedatc
May 17, 2007, 10:43 PM
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i'm not near there but i kinda agree with what Healyje is saying.. The route should have an R/X rating on it if it's so run out and people who aren't solid at that grade should take that as a major warning
pin vs bolt... hosh said he didnt have the stuff to place a bolt..
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ja1484
May 18, 2007, 5:14 AM
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healyje wrote: only SS bolts weather better
What other kind would you place? Carbon steel? There's no excuse to be using anything but stainless these days. None whatsoever.
AS to the OP's reasons for not doing so: Fair 'nuff
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 18, 2007, 5:14 AM)
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hosh
May 18, 2007, 11:57 AM
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healyje wrote: ja1484 wrote: Fair enough. Just my opinion. I do have one question though - why not a bolt? They tend to weather better. Depends on the rock, pins perform fine in ours and only SS bolts weather better. But, despite what I consider good, but entirely misguided intent, the climb should have been left as the FA's did it. Risk - the perception and assumption of it - are core to what climbing is all about. Too bad someone used bad judgment in the incident you cited as your reason for putting in the fixed pro on the route, but to be honest I'd pull it if I were a local. Saving people from themselves at the expense of routes is a losing proposition for all concerned - hopefully climbing will never be risk-free.
I'm not going for "risk free", it's just that if there are many more falls like the one we had a while back, we may have an access issue. I'd rather have a fixed pin that compromises the FA of the climb than no climb at all. Oh, and there's a bolt placed after the crux, next to a protectable crack. I always skip the bolt, but it's there nonetheless.
So far as I can tell, no one in town knows who did the FA. No one that I've really talked to even seems to care. I asked around a bit and no one cared that I placed the pin. Other than that, I feel alright with placing the pin, I was mostly posting so I could get by pin back... ;)
hosh.
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