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medicus


May 21, 2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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simmer bud... simmer down.

I've even started getting annoyed with you HAHAHA.
Really though... you are all over the place. Take a deep breath and relax.


dingus


May 22, 2007, 5:40 AM
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Re: [medicus] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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I don't think there is any hope of making any substantial changes here.

What would be the motive?

Write a FAQ only to have it sold? Fuck THAT.

Become a heavy handed moderator? It'll work to an extent, so long as you're a prick about it. Enjoy your new job.

Field all RFIs dutifully? I bet you can't do it, and won't, either.

That leaves us with what we have here - failure to communicate. Some noobs you just can't reach. So we get what we have here on the Beginners Forum. Because that's the way they want it. Well.... they get it.

Now I don't like it any more than you people.

But seriously, and in practical terms, what would you change for the better? Under the current admin and what have you?

And btw, to the poster that calls this the 'peoples' site' you must be high. The people had their site sold out from under them quite some time ago. This place isz owned lock stock and barrell by some dudes. End of story.

DMT


johngenx


May 22, 2007, 7:36 AM
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Re: [dingus] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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Being a novice climber myself, I really appreciate it when someone more experienced/knowledgable helps out. Really. Whether it's in the mountains or online, we should be sticking together and preserving the sport/activity that we love. But, we need...

1. Humble "noobs" that don't come in with a giant chip on their shoulders. We beginners/novices/whatever need to understand that we know nothing/little/less than many and really appreciate it when the more experienced people lend a hand.
2. Old hands that recall when they were beginners and an old hand bent down to pull them up.

The new people need to ask themselves why they are climbing. If it's just an outlet for your testosterone, then maybe you should do something else. Lack of humilty and patience will get you killed faster than stepping in front of a bus. If you lack the ability to control yourself on an on-line forum, then I suspect you lack the ability to become a good climbing partner.

I understand that the experienced people get tired of hearing the same questions, but that's part of the process. Teach junior high math and you'll spend your life hearing the same fifteen questions. Learn to embrace them and get superb at dealing with them, not dismissing them. The person asking usually has no idea you've heard it a thousand times before. It's new to them. And most of the time, your response will have a great impact on their future with respect to learning.

I myself at am an ackward stage with respect to my climbing. I'm useless at some things, getting pretty durned good at others. I see people that are so skilled I wonder if I have a hope in hell of getting there, and I see rank beginners and marvel at how far I've come. But, I feel obligated to help the complete beginners as much as possible, and will always feel that way. It's part of repaying the debt to the experienced people that have helped me so much.

So, to end my long-winded post, the "noobs" need to calm down a bit (those that come on strong from day one) and the old-salts need to stop being pissed off because someone knows nothing.

'Nuff said


dr_feelgood


May 22, 2007, 7:56 AM
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Amen Brutha!


suzie_cuzie


May 22, 2007, 8:08 AM
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I really don't think there's any point in making long, logical posts that illustrate point by point why the people who flame noobs for asking simple questions are assholes. None of them are going to read these posts and suddenly have the epiphany that they're assholes; they're just going to say everyone in this thread is a whiney bitch. Case in point, our resident frat-pledge marine.

Oldsalt, you can choose to leave, but if you do then you need to realize that you're depriving this site of one person who doesn't call every noob question a troll and tell them to STFU. The noobs here need you, buddy.


richardvg03


May 22, 2007, 8:32 AM
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Re: [suzie_cuzie] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
they're just going to say everyone in this thread is a whiney bitch. Case in point, our resident frat-pledge marine.

You DO realize that I'm a noob also?! Right??
So what you have is a NOOB that got flamed and took it and learned from the flaming and is now looking back on a lot of whiney bitches that can't take their flaming...

If the old guys want to flame the noobs and then answer the question then so be it. It's kind of a trade off.... They flame us... and we get info back.I wouldn't expect info for nothing. Nothing is free... put in your dues and take it.

I've only been here for 2 months suzie...


psprings


May 22, 2007, 9:21 AM
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I think one solution would be to make people register with their real name.

As someone else mentioned, people are a lot more flamish when they aren't face to face, and when their name really doesn't represent them. People like to hide behind alter-ego masks with alternate names on the www.

Anyway, my 2cents.
Peter


primus


May 22, 2007, 9:56 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
suzie_cuzie wrote:
they're just going to say everyone in this thread is a whiney bitch. Case in point, our resident frat-pledge marine.

You DO realize that I'm a noob also?! Right??
So what you have is a NOOB that got flamed and took it and learned from the flaming and is now looking back on a lot of whiney bitches that can't take their flaming...

If the old guys want to flame the noobs and then answer the question then so be it. It's kind of a trade off.... They flame us... and we get info back.I wouldn't expect info for nothing. Nothing is free... put in your dues and take it.

I've only been here for 2 months suzie...


Go away. Save your "locked a loaded", "put in your dues", "nothing is free" macho crap cliches for the barracks. You have brought, and continue to bring, nothing but demeaning, derogatory, and immature comments to rc.com. Don't you realize it's people like you that got people like oldsalt thinking about how rampant a problem noob bashing (or flaming in general) has become?? You are the problem with rc.com. Grow up and learn to show some humility; when you do, then come back--I'm sure you'll be a lot more well received.


alpinismo_flujo


May 22, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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"The attitudes on this site have to change. It's becoming intolerable."

Who said that? Are you kidding me? This site use to be waaaay worse. Hell you could hardly get a straight answer before the "new guys" bought it and came up with a bunch of rules.

....c'mon people - you can't honestly say you have never LOL at some of the stuff - it's FUN.

If you want serious, mature behavior then go to ST.com. RC.com has a reputation to uphold and I'm going to continue to do my part Wink

BTW - I'm a nice guy in person....guess I'm just a poseur because I can hide behind my screen name Wink


fulton


May 22, 2007, 10:00 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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I think that the beginner forum should be done away with and replaced by a Table (database) of articles and FAQ as well as a tutorial for using the site.

(Furthermore, that database should include several recommended books - from Freedom of the Hills to Climbing Anchors to How to climb 5.12 (the latter text I hate, but it has earned its place in the canon of climbing literature and manuals).
The site has a responsibility to foster a culture of pro-active learning (i.e. reading the books) instead of passive (i.e. sitting back and waiting for an answer to your post--getting called a "n00b" in the process).

Otherwise, the "beginner forum" only aggregates poorly formulated questions into one homogeneous cluster-fuck.

In addition (substitution), there should be a top roping forum under the "disiplines" selection of forum threads.


psprings


May 22, 2007, 10:07 AM
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Re: [alpinismo_flujo] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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alpinismo_flujo wrote:
"BTW - I'm a nice guy in person....guess I'm just a poseur because I can hide behind my screen name Wink

LOL... that one cracked me up. Carry on!

PS


richardvg03


May 22, 2007, 10:13 AM
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Re: [alpinismo_flujo] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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alpinismo_flujo wrote:
"The attitudes on this site have to change. It's becoming intolerable."

Who said that? Are you kidding me? This site use to be waaaay worse. Hell you could hardly get a straight answer before the "new guys" bought it and came up with a bunch of rules.

....c'mon people - you can't honestly say you have never LOL at some of the stuff - it's FUN.

If you want serious, mature behavior then go to ST.com. RC.com has a reputation to uphold and I'm going to continue to do my part Wink

BTW - I'm a nice guy in person....guess I'm just a poseur because I can hide behind my screen name Wink

I'm with this guy... and if you seriously think that I'm the problem then I'm honored... I can't believe that in this short time I've been here I have impacted the world of climbing already!! and at such a young age :)Tongue


Partner oldsalt


May 22, 2007, 10:34 AM
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Re: [fulton] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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fulton wrote:
I think that the beginner forum should be done away with and replaced by a Table (database) of articles and FAQ as well as a tutorial for using the site.

... The site has a responsibility to foster a culture of pro-active learning (i.e. reading the books) instead of passive (i.e. sitting back and waiting for an answer to your post--getting called a "n00b" in the process).

In addition (substitution), there should be a top roping forum under the "disiplines" selection of forum threads.

This makes perfect sense to me, including the TR thread. Actually, if new participants are directed to these or the existing information files, and they want to post dumb stuff, then a flame is probably appropriate. But how do you know who has checked existing resources and who has not?

I may be arguing against myself, but someone too dumb or obstinate to do the research - once sent that way with a kind suggestion - may be too dumb or obstinate to climb safely.

This ain't black and white, and I admit it.


richardvg03


May 22, 2007, 10:41 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
fulton wrote:
I think that the beginner forum should be done away with and replaced by a Table (database) of articles and FAQ as well as a tutorial for using the site.

... The site has a responsibility to foster a culture of pro-active learning (i.e. reading the books) instead of passive (i.e. sitting back and waiting for an answer to your post--getting called a "n00b" in the process).

In addition (substitution), there should be a top roping forum under the "disiplines" selection of forum threads.


I like the toproping thread idea! It's a good one!



In reply to:

I may be arguing against myself, but someone too dumb or obstinate to do the research
- once sent that way with a kind suggestion - may be too dumb or obstinate to climb safely.

This ain't black and white, and I admit it.

I think they should do the research BEFORE they ask the questions. I had 2 books before i even posted on here. My big noob dumb question was about home depot biners... which was NOT covered in my books..

oldsalt...i hope you don't think I'm challenging you or arguing with you about this topic. I just feel that there needs to be some good flame throwing for noobs (including myself seeing that I am a noob). I think it keeps them on their feet and makes them research it BEFORE answering out of fear of being flamed. Once they get a good hold on things the flames obviously get smaller and smaller and then they earn their place...

I completely respect your opinion and your views and I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying I think differently...


Partner oldsalt


May 22, 2007, 11:44 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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Richard,

Like you, I didn't rush right in and start broadcasting my ignorance. No one that looks at my profile can conclude that I have all that much experience. I have only 44 days actually on the rock in my 4 years of climbing. I just started to lead on gear.

I am not a n00b, either, but I realize that I don't know nearly as much as I plan to know. You should disagree with me or anyone else in whatever way seems good to you, especially if it is a stupid post.

I get the feeling that some of the flamers are more interested in getting their jollies than saving the n00bs from themselves. That's the part that bothers me.

By the way... Thank you for serving me and my family as a Marine.


richardvg03


May 22, 2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
Richard,


In reply to:

I get the feeling that some of the flamers are more interested in getting their jollies than saving the n00bs from themselves. That's the part that bothers me.

I do agree with you on that. Some people JUST throw flames! I like to mix it up but i tend to not give much advice seeing that I only have 2 months into this sport. Granite (haha) i have read 2-3 books about it and know a lot for a noob i still don't find it my place to give advice yet. I leave that to the salt dogs of the forum. If i do think i can give advice I usually pm the noob and tell them what I think.



In reply to:
By the way... Thank you for serving me and my family as a Marine.

Anytime! and Anywhere! Thanks for the support!


johngenx


May 22, 2007, 2:54 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
... i tend to not give much advice seeing that I only have 2 months into this sport. Granite (haha) i have read 2-3 books about it and know a lot for a noob i still don't find it my place to give advice yet.

I have been climbing for several years, have summited some nice peaks, climbed rock, waterfall ice and steep snow. I've read FOTH so often my copy is about to fall apart. I've read dozens of other books repeatedly.

I would NEVER say "I know a lot." Not even in comparision to someone on their first day on a rope. I might lend a hand to someone that is having some difficulty with some technical point that I feel comfortable assisting with, but I'm no expert and will always be very careful with my advice. If I see someone doing something I think unsafe, I'll question them on it, and if I see someone doing something different than I do, I'll ask about it. Don't miss an opportunity to learn!

Have you been out with any accomplished climbers? One of the benefits of climbing in the Canadian Rockies is meeting people like Barry Blanchard and other top alpinists. You come to say "I have no skill, I know nothing." When you see the cream of the crop in action it is so humbling, I can't describe it.

With rare exceptions, all climbers are such that they are learning more "in" than they are advising "out."

I am encouraged by your enthusiasm Richard, but even those of us with limited experience have seen climbers with your attitude get into serious trouble, and some never come home thanks to their gung-ho attitude. Be very careful not to overestimate your own ability. Even the elite climbers make fatal errors by gowing complacent. Our sport's obituaries show this quite clearly.


(This post was edited by johngenx on May 22, 2007, 2:55 PM)


richardvg03


May 22, 2007, 9:52 PM
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johngenx wrote:
I am encouraged by your enthusiasm Richard, but even those of us with limited experience have seen climbers with your attitude get into serious trouble, and some never come home thanks to their gung-ho attitude. Be very careful not to overestimate your own ability. Even the elite climbers make fatal errors by gowing complacent. Our sport's obituaries show this quite clearly.


Thank you! I only top rope as of now. I try to be extremely safe!! Mostly because I'm afraid of heights!


time2clmb


May 22, 2007, 10:08 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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This comment...

In reply to:
I have only 44 days actually on the rock in my 4 years of climbing. I just started to lead on gear.

cancels out this comment

In reply to:
I am not a n00b, either,

not that there's anything wrong with that.


suzie_cuzie


May 23, 2007, 1:44 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Bad Behavior on the Beginners Forum [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
You should disagree with me or anyone else in whatever way seems good to you, especially if it is a stupid post.

WTF? This statement was basically the complete opposite of your original post. Way to flip-flop...


Partner oldsalt


May 23, 2007, 4:56 AM
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
oldsalt wrote:
You should disagree with me or anyone else in whatever way seems good to you, especially if it is a stupid post.

WTF? This statement was basically the complete opposite of your original post. Way to flip-flop...

I does seem that way, but I am trying differentiate between stating an argument that is in disagreement with the opinion of another, and flaming them for drawing breath on this planet.

How can you disagree with someone who asks a question? There must be an opinion, statement, or claim to disagree with. I don't want to regulate speech, but I don't want to give new people the impression that we are animals here.

The guy wanting information on speed rappelling, for instance, sounds like a guy destined to encounter gravity like he never imagined. If he does, we all suffer because it will be reported as a climbing death. He needs a wakeup, and maybe profanity will make the point - I don't know and I didn't go that route.

Do we have an emoticon for a waffle?


dingus


May 23, 2007, 5:12 AM
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Join a fire department, police department, union, military... a construction site. Show up as a noob and some of those already there will harasses you.

It is simple, it is axiomatic, water flows down hill, the sun comes up in the east and noobs get picked on.

I'm sorry the world is unfair. I'm not saying its right. And I'm sorry not everyone rolls out the red carpet in welcome.

But its just the way it is. Sorta harsh I know, but not anywhere near as harsh as gravity.

There are always a few kind souls, big brothers or sisters, mentors and what have you (hopefully) to help navigate the assholeshark infested waters of reality.

DMT


blueeyedclimber


May 23, 2007, 6:56 AM
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The problem isn't the flaming, but from who it's coming from and whether or not it is justified. There used to be a time when it seemed that the flaming was coming from the more experienced climbers and even amidst all the fire, there was some useful info. Now, it seems that flames are ignited just to watch something burn. The n00B to non-n00b ratio has seemed to dramatically increased in the last year or two. Even weathered climbers like curt have stopped given useful info and have just given in to all the flamage. And whoever said that it used to be worse is full of shit.

When I first started, I was flamed. But, from what I remember those flames either had an argument to back them up or somehow changed my opinion or habits for the better. Now, they are just a waste of space.

Josh


Valarc


May 23, 2007, 7:16 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
When I first started, I was flamed. But, from what I remember those flames either had an argument to back them up or somehow changed my opinion or habits for the better. Now, they are just a waste of space.

Amen! I am a dyed-in-the-wool noob and admit it freely, and I've had a couple of questions get responses along the lines of "stay in the gym, stupid noob". Telling me I'm a moron for some incorrect statement is one thing, but flaming for the sake of flaming is evidence of a deeper problem. Honestly, I don't get how people get ego boosts from these things - IMO a useless flame just makes the poster look like a pathetic douchebag.

A wise man once said, arguing on the internet is a lot like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, at the end of the day you're still retarded. (oh boy, I bet I catch some flack for that one)


pastprime


May 23, 2007, 10:40 AM
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dingus wrote:
"Join a fire department, police department, union, military... a construction site. Show up as a noob and some of those already there will harasses you."

There are always a few kind souls, big brothers or sisters, mentors and what have you (hopefully) to help navigate the assholeshark infested waters of reality.
DMT

Funny you mentioned those things, because I've been a fireman, and in the military (Combat Engineers), and worked a lot of construction jobs, and I've never seen anything but a respectful, helpful attitute toward those who were trying to learn. Same with the attitude of very good climbers toward those just starting out.
The unspoken assumption was always that you were engaged in a very dangerous enterprise, and that person you were helping now might be the only one around to help you in a life and death situation next week.
I am old, and consider myself very fortunate to have lived the richest parts of my life in a time when the idea of acting with a degree of nobility; (how long has it been since you have heard that word used?); treating everyone you encounter with honor and respect; was common enough that those who didn't behave that way were easy to avoid.
Was it stuffy and boring? Read some accounts of climbing's earlier days and decide for yourself. I think the difference is, that underneath all the wildness- maybe it was even a lot of the driving force behind the wildness- was a sense of depth, a sense, now seemingly lost, that it all profoundly mattered somehow.
What has been lost, is that sense that what we are doing really matters.

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