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Valarc
May 26, 2007, 2:51 PM
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This week I had a rather painful experience of trying to sling myself in to some poorly placed bolts at the end of a overhanging route, so I've been thinking a lot about various adjustable ways to sling myself in, with the idea that there would be some adjustability in the distance between me and the bolts.
I realize that in many cases the best bet is to tie in directly with the rope, since it's dynamic and falling on a sling is a baaad idea, but I'm specifically talking about cleaning a sport route, where the rap anchors are too small to pass a bight through, so my only recourse is to untie, pass the rope, and then retie, while hanging on slings. I would usually carry a pair of 24" slings for this, but this time I sure would have liked something a bit longer. So, I'm searching for something with adjustability in length.
One obvious choice would be the metolius PAS, but I like plain old simple nylon webbing because it seems to handle shock loading better than the space-age materials.
As I was digging around the forums today, looking for a simple nylon version of the PAS, I came across this post:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1229883#1229883
The images are hosted on Yahoo photos, which is going away soon, so I'll replicate them here.
To my untrained eye, this looks like a really cool alternative to slings for this application- the prusiks allow you to adjust the length of the cord, and by using nylon cord you'd achieve a small degree of dynamic loading compared to the typical sling. The only downside I can think of at the moment is that shock-loading a prusik can cause very bad things (tm) to happen.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this setup?
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ja1484
May 26, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Where on earth are you climbing that you can't pass a bight of rope through the shuts?
Anyway, far as I'm concerned you should never be off the rope, but if there's absolutely no alternative, the following is recommended:
1) Stop climbing at that choss pile and move on to greener pastures.
2) That cow's tail looks about as good as it's going to get. Making it out of a chunk of 8mm twin rope would probably be the way to go, as it gives you some dynamism in the system.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 26, 2007, 3:22 PM)
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altelis
May 26, 2007, 4:52 PM
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holy anal retentivitely-letter-of-the-law-unfounded-fears batman!
listen---if you are going from lead to lower/rap on a sport climb, you aren't brining somebody up on toprope, etc., you are fine to clip into the anchor with a daisy/sling backup, something static, etc. no worries.
the key here is to make sure you are always weighting the slings so as to prevet any possiblity of taking a fall onto the static material directly. if you just make sure you are always hanging on the slings, you are good to go to untie.
just don't drop the rope
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greenketch
May 26, 2007, 5:12 PM
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I would just go with a PAS or a Daisy. i wouldn't go into the reinvent the wheel mode.
The real issue is to look at what you are doing. Sure the daisy or a PAS don't handle shock loads well, But you said you are wanting to clean an overhung route. To shock load your tie-in you must climb above the anchor and fall off. Basically do a high fall factor drop on a short stiff line. How are you possibly going to do that if you are in fact heavily overhung? The worst is a severe pendulum and I have never been able to really get that far out if my waist is tied in short.
Like I said start with taking a carefull look at what you are really doing and be honest not paranoid.
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Valarc
May 26, 2007, 5:19 PM
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altelis wrote: holy anal retentivitely-letter-of-the-law-unfounded-fears batman!
Good point - I guess I figure, since I'm trying to come up with something adjustable, I might as well play with other ideas.
I think for the time being I'm gonna take a cue from the trad guys, and use a long-ass sling that's been doubled over, giving me the option to lenghten it without taking up a zillion different slings. That just means I'd have to clip it to my belay biner with a locker instead of a girth hitch, no big whoop. The particular problem I had here was that a 2-foot sling wasn't long enough to comfortably reach the anchors while hanging precariously from the overhang. This isn't something I expect to happen very often, but I always enjoy thinking about the possibilities brought up by a given situation.
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ja1484
May 26, 2007, 5:41 PM
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altelis wrote: holy anal retentivitely-letter-of-the-law-unfounded-fears batman!
I have yet to understand this trend of halfassing. If you're going to do it, do it the best you can. Regardless, if someone is asking how to deal with a sport anchor on here, I'm willing to bet the chances of their fucking up with a static connection are higher than average. Hence the caution.
That said, I clip in with two link draws typically and typically pass a bight through.
The reason for never being off rope is, usually, redundancy.
But of course, I only do this if I'm forced to sport climb 
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 26, 2007, 5:42 PM)
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altelis
May 26, 2007, 6:06 PM
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no offense, but this isn't half-assing. this is being perfectly and redundantly safe and as efficient as possible.
we can double and triple and quadruple up our safety chain all we want, but at a certain point we must say enough. what i'm saying is that the way i'm suggesting is redundantly safe (i always clove the rope to me to prevent dropage) and fast. why make it more complicated when we really aren't adding any meaningful safety to the process?
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Valarc
May 26, 2007, 7:08 PM
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I'm not just talking about safety, I'm talking about convenience - in this particular instance, I ran into a big headache because of some bolts that were a pain to reach - so I started considering possibilities for adjustable reach, and while I was at it I started thinking about anchoring in general.
Yes, a pair of draws or a pair of slings work and have worked for loads of people - I'm just looking for other ideas to add to my bag of tricks. I see nothing wrong with wanting to be as versatile as possible. I'm a wannabe sport weenie right now, but one day I might want to be a wannabe trad type, so things that seem unimportant at the moment, like shock loading, might end up being important down the line.
I find it kind of funny that you're giving me crap about wanting to consider ALL aspects of safety and get opinions on their relevance to this particular situation, instead of brushing them off as unimportant like most noobs.
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Valarc
May 26, 2007, 7:12 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Regardless, if someone is asking how to deal with a sport anchor on here, I'm willing to bet the chances of their fucking up with a static connection are higher than average. Hence the caution.
While I appreciate your concern, I'm pretty well convinced I won't be letting myself get into a situation of falling on static slings any time soon - I've done enough homework to understand the dangers inherent in such a fall.
My post was more because I was looking for a solution to my relatively simple problem, and while looking came across a kind of strange idea that intrigued me, so I wanted to see what people thought of it.
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petsfed
May 26, 2007, 7:37 PM
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Valarc wrote: ja1484 wrote: Regardless, if someone is asking how to deal with a sport anchor on here, I'm willing to bet the chances of their fucking up with a static connection are higher than average. Hence the caution. While I appreciate your concern, I'm pretty well convinced I won't be letting myself get into a situation of falling on static slings any time soon - I've done enough homework to understand the dangers inherent in such a fall. My post was more because I was looking for a solution to my relatively simple problem, and while looking came across a kind of strange idea that intrigued me, so I wanted to see what people thought of it.
Valarc, you're not the one being criticised. Its altelis that's catching it.
In any event, its called a daisy chain. Keep it tight, don't use it if you expect the sling to go slack or if you expect to be above the anchor at some point. Adjustable, plenty long, perfect for what you need.
And its VERY COMMON, ja1484, to find the top anchors of a sport climb to not feature open shuts or anything you can easily pass a bight of rope through. Chains are still accepted practice, and trying to cram a bight of 10.5 rope through a standard chain link is difficult, at best.
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ja1484
May 26, 2007, 7:59 PM
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petsfed wrote: And its VERY COMMON, ja1484, to find the top anchors of a sport climb to not feature open shuts or anything you can easily pass a bight of rope through. Chains are still accepted practice, and trying to cram a bight of 10.5 rope through a standard chain link is difficult, at best.
While I agree that it happens from time to time, I certainly haven't noticed it being an issue at any sport crag I'd want to frequent. Hence rule #1 above.
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altelis
May 26, 2007, 8:09 PM
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from time to time? are you kidding me?
come out here and crank at american fork....ever hear of it? some of america's premier hard overhanging limestone sport climbing (ok, maybe rifle counts too )
pretty much EVERY climb as a normal hanger with chains for anchors.
this really isn't a flame---and i don't know for sure in how many different areas you've climbed, but big shuts for anchors hasn't been the rule, and it hasn't been the exception. i've been to my fair share of american, french, swiss and south african HIGH quality sport climbing crags and its about a toss up as to what you'll find as an anchor. assuming a crag is a choss pile POS just 'cause its got chains at the anchors is going to vastly limit the number of amazing climbing sites you'll see.
and i agree with petsfeld, daisy is the way to go....i just didn't say as much cause it can be a hot topic and didn't want to contribute to massive thread drift. HOWEVER, as was stated by petseld and being restated by me: IF you make sure to keep it weighted and never get above the anchor a daisy chain is THE way to clean sport routes.
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c-money
May 26, 2007, 8:15 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Where on earth are you climbing that you can't pass a bight of rope through the shuts?
Maybe Smith Rock?
As has been mentioned, chains are pretty popular at a lot of major sport climbing areas. I wouldn't let this dictate where I climb. There is more than one way to remain tied-in when dealing with a sport anchor.
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ja1484
May 26, 2007, 8:32 PM
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<--- Stuck on the east coast.
Most of my sporting has been done at NRG or RRG. Haven't noticed many chains (sometimes on less popular routes), but around here most of the stuff that sees a decent amount of traffic has been re-speared with the newer hardware to make life easy.
Maybe that's just how it is in this neck of the woods. I don't travel very far or wide for sport.
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petsfed
May 26, 2007, 11:54 PM
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ja1484 wrote: <--- Stuck on the east coast. Most of my sporting has been done at NRG or RRG. Haven't noticed many chains (sometimes on less popular routes), but around here most of the stuff that sees a decent amount of traffic has been re-speared with the newer hardware to make life easy. Maybe that's just how it is in this neck of the woods. I don't travel very far or wide for sport.
That might do it. I've been to a lot of different sport climbing destinations in the west, and most of them have chains or (if you're lucky) those fixe rap station things with the beefy rap ring welded into the bolt hanger. Best I've seen is a bent gate crab on each bolt at the anchor. But those disappear way too fast. Even if you've got the fixe rap stations, if you've got a 10.5, its pretty hard to pass a bight through. And you still have to anchor yourself somehow when you're doing that, unless you can get the rope through the anchors, a not tied, and clipped to your harness, all while hanging one handed at the top of the route.
(This post was edited by petsfed on May 26, 2007, 11:55 PM)
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ja1484
May 27, 2007, 12:48 AM
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I usually lead on a 10.1 - 10.2 and I've never had trouble threading rings, which are what most of the anchors around here (NC) seem to be, with a bight.
Up at the New it's understandably more varied, but rings are pretty common, as are open shuts (on less climbed routes). Recently, some rebolting efforts have gotten underway up there which have resulted in brand-new, nice n' purty glue-ins taking residence in pairs at the tops of climbs.
The really popular routes that are considered area classics have mostly been re-anchored with stainless clip-shuts at the top, which is *very* convenient.
I may yet get a chance to eat some nice, fluffy crow as I have a two month trip to Arizona planned for this Sept/August. I have a feeling many a chain awaits me.
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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 3:38 AM
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Valarc
Those adjustable slings (as you posted) called purcell and are the safest and strongest and it has been approved by many rope experts.
Here are my recent images from examining those adjustable slings after drop test vs. the OTHERS
In one photo I marked the distance with a pen to indicate, how far the locking part slid before it grabbed on the rope while the other sling just failed.
If you need more info, PM me
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 27, 2007, 3:55 AM)
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moose_droppings
May 27, 2007, 4:39 AM
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Majid,
The Purcell prussiks I've seen (and the ones I got made up) have 2 raps on one side and 3 raps on the other of the prussik itself. Is this the new way of doing the Purcell, 3 on both sides (your last pic)? Seems like those would bite more than they would slip.
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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 4:49 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Majid, The Purcell prussiks I've seen (and the ones I got made up) have 2 raps on one side and 3 raps on the other of the prussik itself. Is this the new way of doing the Purcell, 3 on both sides (your last pic)? Seems like those would bite more than they would slip.
Moose
For our non-climbing application, we use three rap but two works fine, except they are slightly weaker but not by much. In either way, they are fully dropped tested ( the only adjustable sling that survived a decent FF ,period).
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 27, 2007, 6:02 AM)
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Valarc
May 27, 2007, 3:32 PM
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I thought they looked familiar - thanks for reminding me of the name 'purcell'!
What diameter cord did you use for the test?
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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Valarc wrote: I thought they looked familiar - thanks for reminding me of the name 'purcell'! What diameter cord did you use for the test?
I did not do the test but saw the drop test video and examined the purcell after the test to see how much slipage they had .I think 7 mm was used for the drop test and I have few page PDF reserch on it but I have to find it in my computer.
7 mm would be the best option but I also seen people do it with cords between 6 and 7 mm. You need to make 2 sets, the other one can be used to climb up the rope in case sh8t hit the fan and you need to jug up.See photo
You need total of 10 meter (30 feet) of 7 mm cord to make 2 purcell.
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 27, 2007, 4:45 PM)
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binrat
May 28, 2007, 2:16 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Majid, The Purcell prussiks I've seen (and the ones I got made up) have 2 raps on one side and 3 raps on the other of the prussik itself. Is this the new way of doing the Purcell, 3 on both sides (your last pic)? Seems like those would bite more than they would slip.
M.D.
I've seen people who don't know how to tie the 3/2 prussik just do it with 2/2 or 3/3. The 3/2 prussik really works well for this application.
(edit because mysausage fingers hit the wrong key)
(This post was edited by binrat on May 28, 2007, 10:12 PM)
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niloc
May 30, 2007, 2:03 AM
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Another option, a bit bulky but useful:
I use about 6ft of 8mm Edelrid Livewire, tie one end to harness and clove hitch binner about half way and tie loose end using a double fisherman's around main strand. Adjust length by slipping the double fisherman's and adjusting clove.
Colin
(This post was edited by niloc on May 30, 2007, 2:04 AM)
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Valarc
May 30, 2007, 6:00 PM
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The chain reactor definitely looks like something I'd be interested in - do you know any online retailers who actually carry this thing? I've googled and can't seem to find anyone. All the usual suspects don't list it in their stores.
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