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dynosore
Jun 6, 2007, 4:32 PM
Post #26 of 43
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Well, it sounds like you're setting up a TOP rope, how about you belay from the TOP 
Seriously, if you can't figure this out, you need to take a class, read some books, etc.
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nicodeemus
Jun 6, 2007, 5:36 PM
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the_shoe wrote: Not safe at all! (to lower that is.0 You are using at least 4 to 6 feet of rope to tie the rope into your leader and to the belayer. Or at least you should be in the habbit of tying into your belayer as well as the leader to avoid running out the last of your rope through the belay device while belaying 30M+ routes. I have to agree with some of the other posts that this thread is becoming alarming at an increasing rate. Perhaps for your safety it would be wise to slow down a bit and have some one show you the techniquies involved in this process.
thanks for the concern everyone. I understand and have been practising the techniques for the last year. I always have the belay end of the rope tied to a rope tarp so as not to run out of rope through my ATC. I have always climbed routes less than 25M for fear of running out of rope. Just recently have I been curious about the longer routes.
(This post was edited by nicodeemus on Jun 6, 2007, 5:41 PM)
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epoch
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Jun 6, 2007, 7:41 PM
Post #28 of 43
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They DO make longer ropes, you know...
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gunkiemike
Jun 6, 2007, 8:25 PM
Post #29 of 43
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It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.
(pause to let that sink in)
Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.
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j_ung
Jun 6, 2007, 8:32 PM
Post #30 of 43
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The ol' Gri-gri double-rope rap trick. Yarrrr...
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studclimber
Jun 7, 2007, 10:45 PM
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I'm guessing you are just top-roping, judging by the whole 35 meter pitch deal. So, you either need to get a 70 m rope, or you need to learn to climb multipitch, and either use a second rope for rapping(get some instruction from someone experienced) or just make do with single rope rappels.
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quiteatingmysteak
Jun 7, 2007, 10:53 PM
Post #32 of 43
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Assuming you can get to the top anchors, which is what i am gathering from your description....
1.) Belay from the top with a *proper* anchor on top. Consult one of many guidebooks, including "More Climbing Anchors" for a better idea.
2.) tie 2 ropes together, rap down, pull the ropes, lead up, belay up your second. Which knot to tie them together with? I'll let you sort out that bag o worms
3.) Consider the last thing to limit your climbing be the lenght of the route. rather, let the size of reality be the reason your out there :)
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jt512
Jun 9, 2007, 1:44 AM
Post #33 of 43
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evanwish
Jun 15, 2007, 7:39 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Nope. Never been done. If you figure out a way to climb a route longer than the middle mark of the rope, let us know. Those guys that climb El Cap? They just have really long ropes. You wouldn't believe the rope drag though.
wow. you crack me up! dang.
seriously folks, he's not even joking. this is serious stuff, you know; that 8000' rope set up on on El Cap. [yeah the rope drag was pretty bad felt like uhh, mabey 6000 pounds?]
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rockguide
Jun 19, 2007, 12:35 PM
Post #36 of 43
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gunkiemike wrote: It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope. (pause to let that sink in) Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.
I do this often.
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markc
Jun 19, 2007, 1:36 PM
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Rockguide and gunkiemike, that just seems like a good bit of added effort to me. While I didn't specifically outline it, this is a part of the shenanigans I was thinking about in my earlier post. What are the advantages?
If you're going to do this, it would seem practical to lower off the second in most cases. He's already on belay when he hits the top. Why bother switching to a single-strand rap, then hauling line and swapping to a double-strand rap? Just lower him off, take him off belay, then up rope with the other strand attached.
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iwasasportweenie
Jun 19, 2007, 2:36 PM
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A large trampoline placed at the bottom of the route could work, since with rope stretch you shouldn't be more than 20-25 feet off the ground.
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jt512
Jun 19, 2007, 4:57 PM
Post #39 of 43
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gunkiemike wrote: It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope. (pause to let that sink in) Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.
Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction.
Climber at top...yells for help?
Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal?
It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line).
Jay
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markc
Jun 19, 2007, 5:27 PM
Post #41 of 43
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jt512 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope. (pause to let that sink in) Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion. Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction. Climber at top...yells for help? Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal? It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line). Jay
All of which is why I originally filed this under 'shenanigans'. As far as who hauls it, that's something I've been trying to get at. If the route is at the leader's limit, is the extra weight going to screw her up? If the weight isn't going to be a major impact, it gives the leader more options if the route can't be completed or if the second can't finish the pitch.
If the second brings up the rope, I'd strongly suggest wearing it instead of trailing it. Otherwise you run some of the same risks as in Jay's example. Then you're either lowering the second to free the snag or dropping the tag line. If the second can't complete the pitch, then you're either hauling him up, or lowering him off, pulling the rope up through the protection and pitching it so you can get the second line, hauling it up, then cleaning the damn route yourself.
Another alternative I wouldn't suggest would be rapping down to an intermediate bolt, clipping in direct, pulling the line, and either leaving a biner or doing the Texas Rope Trick. If you try that and stick your rope on the first pull with a n00b partner, then you might be in really bad shape!
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gunkiemike
Jun 20, 2007, 1:50 AM
Post #42 of 43
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jt512 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope. (pause to let that sink in) Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion. Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction. Climber at top...yells for help? Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal? It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line). Jay
Props for giving the heads-up on the things that could go wrong. Anyone trying my suggestion had best be prepared to address said mishaps or pay the epic gods.
As for me, I sure as hell aren't going to lead with a second rope. So I give my partner the choice: a) backpack the second rope, b) trail the second rope (but YOU go back down if it gets hung up), or c) we do my suggestion, and I'LL clear up any rope snafus. For the record, I've never had a rope hang-up in this situation. But folks who climb in more featured terrain might have a different experience.
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ja1484
Jun 20, 2007, 3:00 AM
Post #43 of 43
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Preferred method of getting second rope up to rap area:
Either the second packs it or wears it as a mountaineer's coil.
The best option: Walk off. It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to deal with the added weight and nuisance of a second rope.
There's also the knotless "end to end" taping...place the ropes end to end, then get out your tape...start about 6 inches above the splice and start wrapping your way downwards until you're about six inches below the splice. Boom...no-profile rope joining. Not very strong ( I wouldn't give it more than 20lbs or so holding power), but it'll let you haul the rope up. Add a layer of duck tape if abrasion is a concern (i.e. slab, sharp rock).
Note: After hauling, untape your rope, and *please* do not join ropes for rappel using this method :)
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