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blueeyedclimber
Jun 12, 2007, 6:02 PM
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microbarn wrote: majid_sabet wrote: patto wrote: I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls. My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber. As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on. Two weeks ago while talking to a good friend of mine who has some big wall first ascent to his name told me the same exact thing. You need to have that fear otherwise you become ignorant. Well my friend can beat up your friend, and he agrees with me.
Now we're getting somewhere 
Microbarn, I agree with your assessment on how you should approach falling practice, but my original assertion had nothing to do with that. My point is that Falling practice is a very specific thing to address a very specific need. IT is NOT something that is beneficial to everyone, let alone a beginner who doesn't even know how to assess the risk in each fall.
Once again, giving the advice to practice falling without knowing that person, his/her experience level, or whether they are even a capable leader, is irresposible.
BTW, I can't remember the last time I have had this many posts in a day.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 12, 2007, 6:13 PM
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The problem that i have with too much falling practice is that you get used to it and lose your respect for falling. (BTDT) You fight the way you train. You also climb the way you train. If you get in the mode of whipping all the time you better have a smart head on your shoulders and know when its ok and when its not. 100% of the falling accidents you read about would not have happened if the climber did not fall. I have personaly witnessed a trashed ankle that was a direct result of a go for it! i do this all the time mentality. I have done the same boulder problem dozens of times and I allways treat it like a solo. If I am not sure of the top out I downclimb. My friend is super strong, was sportclimbing a lot and used to going for it and takeing the fall. That is the way this guy trained. He jumped in a place that I would NEVER have let go = trashed ankle. Call me a whimp but a healthy respect for gravity is not all that bad. I know of annother person who broke her knee in a practice fall After Reading Arnos book, She did not blame Arno but put all the blame on herself. I tend to agree. Jumping off for a 20 footer was pretty stooopid even if you did read it in a book one thing to keep in mind is that Arno is an Akido sensei. A huge part of the akido style is falling and they are amazeing fallers. People tend to do what they are best at and Arnos lack of fear for falling has certainly helped him become a great climber. It works for him but that does not mean that it will work for everyone. Most of the rest of use should keep the air time to a minimum and learn how to climb better.
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iwasasportweenie
Jun 12, 2007, 6:22 PM
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saxfiend wrote: caughtinside wrote: It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling. Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off. JL
I realize that this thread is pretty much dead at this point, but I thought I'd interject that there seem to be two separate discussions going on here - the discussion about mastering the "art of falling" that granite_grrrl started, and the discussion about trad leading that josh and microbarn are having.
Just to weigh in on the first one: there's no reason to "practice" falling on trad gear. If you just want to be physically comfortable with falling, then sport climb. And avoid slabs like the plague. If you can climb solid 5.10 or harder, you should be able to find vertical to overhanging climbs that provide nice clean falls. This might sound silly to a lot of you, but another thing to do is to climb safe routes while they're wet. Falling when you're not expecting to fall is very different from getting pumped or going for the hard move and just not making it.
Granite_grrrl - in the situation you were describing, if you were worried, you could have just tried taking the fall. It sounds like you were pretty close to the bolt and it would have been a clean fall. Unless you've got a heel-toe cam or a heel hook, or something else where your foot is "stuck" and your hands might slip, you won't invert. Unless you're "in front" of the rope, and it will catch your leg, which is always avoidable.
I don't have anything to add to the trad discussion. I think you're both right and it sounds like you agree.
ER
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pylonhead
Jun 12, 2007, 6:25 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: Everytime you fall your safety system is non-redundant.
When do we get our trophies back?
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saxfiend
Jun 12, 2007, 7:03 PM
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caughtinside wrote: saxfiend wrote: caughtinside wrote: It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling. Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off. JL Well, it may not be the objective, but that's the result.
How do you know? It's not the result I've experienced. I seriously doubt you'll find anyone who's taken the WW course has fallen into an "intend to fall" mindstate.
In reply to: When I fall, I generally don't have time to think about anything except something really clever like 'oh shit'
JL
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caughtinside
Jun 12, 2007, 7:53 PM
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ok, I haven't taken any WW classes nor read the book, so can't comment on that. I'll take your word for it.
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cracklover
Jun 12, 2007, 7:55 PM
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Hoo boy, here we go again.
Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period.
Trad climbs *can* have safe falls, but taking falls is about as urgent for a new trad climber as learning how to make a nest of equalized RPs.
So that's what I think about new trad leaders. I think it's an open and shut case. For experienced trad leaders - the situation couldn't be more different.
With all due respect for Majid and all the rest of you in this thread, experienced leaders don't need me to tell them what they need to reach their goals. And no, that doesn't mean they need your opinion either! Why? Because by definition, once you're a real trad leader, you by definition have the ability to evaluate your goals and your skills, and to make the right choices to take you on the path towards where you want to go.
Dingus has this right on the money, and he's said it many times in many ways. The path of one leader may be the path of high-risk high-altitude low-safety-margin climbing. Another leader may find his life goals in three-pitch G rated climbs well within his physical limits.
Point is, it's for *me* as a leader to figure out, once I've fledged from the nest, what I need to do to get to the next level. It's climbing on the life level. Metaphysical-climbing.
Just as you've no right to spew beta at me mid-lead as to where I should go, you've no right to spew advice about what's best for my development. Even if it means a trashed ankle, a broken biner, or, heaven-forbid, even a carry-out. Trad climbing is a sport of individual expression, and a leader chooses her own path, or is no leader at all.
GO
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cracklover
Jun 12, 2007, 8:02 PM
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As for the Warriors Way, personally, I find the whole WW business mystifying, and a seeming waste of time. Emphasis in that sentence is on the word personally! If it works for you, great. Why should you care what I think of it? At the end of the day, the first round's on me either way, if we've had a great day of climbing.
Cheers!
GO
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saxfiend
Jun 12, 2007, 8:37 PM
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cracklover wrote: As for the Warriors Way, personally, I find the whole WW business mystifying, and a seeming waste of time. Emphasis in that sentence is on the word personally! If it works for you, great. Why should you care what I think of it?
JL
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murph24
Jun 13, 2007, 1:17 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I like Cheese! I'm like a big mouse.
...Uncle Buck, that movie is hilarious
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 13, 2007, 12:47 PM
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cracklover wrote: At the end of the day, the first round's on me either way, if we've had a great day of climbing. Cheers! GO
...you had me at "first rounds on me."
I may just hold you to that. Btw, nice post above that, and is kind of what I was getting at.
Josh
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boku
Jun 13, 2007, 5:11 PM
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cracklover wrote: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ...
[meandering off topic]
Interesting statement. It seems to summarize the defining feature of sport climbing. Might it be the very definition of sport climbing? Let's see:
"Sport Climbing: That realm of rock climbing in which falls are generally assumed to have little or no risk of injury."
Works for me so far.
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microbarn
Jun 13, 2007, 5:25 PM
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boku wrote: cracklover wrote: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ... [meandering off topic] Interesting statement. It seems to summarize the defining feature of sport climbing. Might it be the very definition of sport climbing? Let's see: "Sport Climbing: That realm of rock climbing in which falls are generally assumed to have little or no risk of injury." Works for me so far.
disagree
Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.
Some climbs allow you to back up moves to an extreme. This means you could set up an anchor mid-pitch and do the one move wonder crux with the anchor at your waist. This is a situation where falling could be safe.
Sport climbing has bolts of unknown age and condition. Sometimes falling onto a bolt can be worse then falling onto your own well placed and redundant gear.
In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.
I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.
I wish I had a memory for names. There was someone that did their climbing at the Gunks. His reputation was for pushing the grades much higher because he was willing to fall. He would make nests of protection if needed, but he was willing to fall. I think he was a chemist or chemical engineer. The thing I read about him said he was a very measured kind of person. It is possible he did the first 5.12 at the gunks or in the country or something like that.
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majid_sabet
Jun 13, 2007, 6:03 PM
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microbarn wrote: boku wrote: cracklover wrote: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ... [meandering off topic] Interesting statement. It seems to summarize the defining feature of sport climbing. Might it be the very definition of sport climbing? Let's see: "Sport Climbing: That realm of rock climbing in which falls are generally assumed to have little or no risk of injury." Works for me so far. disagree Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them. Some climbs allow you to back up moves to an extreme. This means you could set up an anchor mid-pitch and do the one move wonder crux with the anchor at your waist. This is a situation where falling could be safe. Sport climbing has bolts of unknown age and condition. Sometimes falling onto a bolt can be worse then falling onto your own well placed and redundant gear. In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above. I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety. I wish I had a memory for names. There was someone that did their climbing at the Gunks. His reputation was for pushing the grades much higher because he was willing to fall. He would make nests of protection if needed, but he was willing to fall. I think he was a chemist or chemical engineer. The thing I read about him said he was a very measured kind of person. It is possible he did the first 5.12 at the gunks or in the country or something like that.
In reply to: Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.
Are you sure ?
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boku
Jun 13, 2007, 6:41 PM
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microbarn wrote: boku wrote: cracklover wrote: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ... [meandering off topic] Interesting statement. It seems to summarize the defining feature of sport climbing. Might it be the very definition of sport climbing? Let's see: "Sport Climbing: That realm of rock climbing in which falls are generally assumed to have little or no risk of injury." Works for me so far. disagree
To what part?
microbarn wrote: Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.
I never said it wasn't. Been there, done that, literally got the T-shirt.
microbarn wrote: Some climbs allow you to back up moves to an extreme. This means you could set up an anchor mid-pitch and do the one move wonder crux with the anchor at your waist. This is a situation where falling could be safe.
I don't disagree with that.
microbarn wrote: Sport climbing has bolts of unknown age and condition. Sometimes falling onto a bolt can be worse then falling onto your own well placed and redundant gear.
I didn't say that sport climbing falls are safe. I said that they are "generally assumed" to be safe, and deliberately used the passive voice to preserve ambiguity regarding by whom. I believe that the occasional difference between the assumption and reality is another of the definining features of sport climbing. Not that I'm trying to be perjorative of sport climbing, I do more than a little of it myself.
microbarn wrote: In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.
Okay, fine.
microbarn wrote: I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.
No disagreement there. I never proposed that trad climbing falls, or falls on trad gear, can't on occasion be perfectly safe. And I don't think either of us would propose that falls on trad gear are always, or even usually safe. That's patently untrue. But I wasn't addressing that, not at all.
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microbarn
Jun 13, 2007, 6:54 PM
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sorry, when you agree with this statement:
In reply to: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ...
I assumed you were saying safe falling cannot happen in trad climbing. (The Period. at the end implies this.)
I think I understand your position now.
It was all just confusion because it is written down and not spoken I suppose.
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boku
Jun 13, 2007, 7:15 PM
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microbarn wrote: sorry, when you agree with this statement: In reply to: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ... I assumed you were saying safe falling cannot happen in trad climbing. (The Period. at the end implies this.) I think I understand your position now. It was all just confusion because it is written down and not spoken I suppose.
Ah, I understand your point now. Totally cool.
[now really heads off-topic]
You do raise a good point: If you're out climbing on gear, and for whatever reason you engineer a situation in which falling has little or no risk of injury, are you still trad climbing? Or have you set up a little bubble of sport climbing inside the realm of trad climbing? Interesting question.
(This post was edited by boku on Jun 13, 2007, 9:55 PM)
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cracklover
Jun 14, 2007, 12:32 AM
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Holy crap, talk about taking what I said out of context.
cracklover wrote: Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. Trad climbs *can* have safe falls, but taking falls is about as urgent for a new trad climber as learning how to make a nest of equalized RPs.
How much clearer do I have to make that? I didn't say that no other venue of climbing includes safe leader falls (TRing has nothing to do with this, nor does the gear you use to set the TR - talk about BS arguments!). Look, when sport climbs are created (yes, created) the bolts are placed with safe falls in mind. The whole point of the bolts is to allow relatively safe falls! Of course trad climbs can have safe falls, and in some cases they're even engineered to. But it is certainly not in the nature of the beast.
Anyway, all that is sidestepping the question. The issue I'm addressing is whether being comfortable with falling is important enough to a leader that they should practice it if they're not good at it. My answer is that, for a sport leader, absolutely. Falling is an integral part of that sub-sport, at essentially every level. With trad climbing, that statement could not be made.
microbarn wrote: In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.
This has nothing to do with the kind of trad climbing I do. I've done trad climbs where falling is completely safe (in fact, I've done trad climbs where I've fallen repeatedly - even climbs where I *expected* to fall) and other climbs where I regularly went 30 feet between placements.
In reply to: I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.
Who cares? Of course they *could*. The question is should they? The point I'm making, that you're so adeptly avoiding, is that for a beginning trad climber, they're counterproductive in terms of habit-of-mind, they're difficult to do safely, and that practicing falling is a poor use of skill development, when there are so many skills to develop. And for the solid trad leader, they may or may not be useful, and it's up to that leader as an individual to decide. In short, neither the beginning trad leader, nor the solid trad leader should be prescribed practice falling as a must-have skill for her development.
Do you disagree with that? If so, how so?
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Jun 14, 2007, 12:34 AM)
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microbarn
Jun 14, 2007, 2:42 AM
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I "avoided" the questions and points earlier because I agree with you on the whole, and I thought it was nonsense to have a love fest on the issues. I only disagreed with Boku when the comments were out of context. Now, you are assuming my arguments were directed at you. None of them were. I am failing to see where we disagree on anything worth discussing.
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curt
Jun 14, 2007, 3:24 AM
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microbarn wrote: ...I wish I had a memory for names. There was someone that did their climbing at the Gunks. His reputation was for pushing the grades much higher because he was willing to fall. He would make nests of protection if needed, but he was willing to fall. I think he was a chemist or chemical engineer. The thing I read about him said he was a very measured kind of person. It is possible he did the first 5.12 at the gunks or in the country or something like that...
That would be John Stannard, a regular climbing partner of mine for 20+ years. He is a solid state physicist (now retired) and, depending where you read that comment, I may have written it.
Curt
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cracklover
Jun 14, 2007, 3:44 AM
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Okay, cool.
GO
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jt512
Jun 14, 2007, 4:25 AM
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boku wrote: microbarn wrote: sorry, when you agree with this statement: In reply to: ...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ... I assumed you were saying safe falling cannot happen in trad climbing. (The Period. at the end implies this.) I think I understand your position now. It was all just confusion because it is written down and not spoken I suppose. Ah, I understand your point now. Totally cool. [now really heads off-topic] You do raise a good point: If you're out climbing on gear, and for whatever reason you engineer a situation in which falling has little or no risk of injury, are you still trad climbing? Or have you set up a little bubble of sport climbing inside the realm of trad climbing? Interesting question.
No, it is not an interesting question. It is a ridiculous question. Of course there is safe trad climbing. I'd venture to say that most trad climbing is reasonably safe. Usually, continuous cracks are safe, because you can place protection at will (which, arguably, makes them safer than many sport climbs). I spent 10 years doing reasonably safe trad climbing, almost always choosing routes that I could protect well, at least when I found the climbing challenging.
Jay
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arnoilgner
Jul 15, 2007, 12:05 AM
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ultimately it boils down to what you want from your climbing. some climbers are motivated to climb and never fall. and there are plenty of trad AND sport climbs where you shouldn't fall. so don't push to the point of falling. but, there are plenty of well protected trad and sport climbs where the falls are cleaner (vertical rock without obstacles with falls less than 20').
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just go get some dvd of talented climbers climbing sport and trad. see how often they fall. for them, they wanted to excel so they know they need to push past what their mind says is possible. sometimes they made it through; sometimes they fell. this was their way to practice falling. they just pushed themselves and by falling they experientially learned how to respond well to falls.
how often do you think tony yaniro, steve petro, or any talented trad climber fell while working difficult trad climbs, like grand illusion?
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but, it all depends on what you want from your climbing. climbing is dangerous but you cannot diminish that danger by avoiding what is dangerous about it. you must embrace and learn what is distracting your attention so you learn how to respond to it well. learning isn't a thinking process; it's an engaging process where you push yourself a little outside your comfort zone. this way you learn in small increments and diminish possible injury.
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if you want your climbing to be a recreational activity then there is no need to practice falling. just follow, toprope, and stay on easier routes to minimize the possibility of falling.
if, however, your climbing is performance based, where you really want to improve, you absolutely must embrace falling. practice falling or get on climbs where a fall will be assured. either way you'll become familiar with what you fear and with less fear you can focus forward on the climbing process better.
perhaps this helps?
arno
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dynosore
Aug 13, 2009, 4:34 PM
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Yeah, falling purposely on trad gear makes a lot of sense. I also practice the following, since I will probably eventually encounter them:
Simulated lightening strikes by hooking jumper cables up to my ####
Ice cold 2 hour showers to the point of hypothermia to simulate having dropped/forgotten my rain shell and getting caught in a strom
Climbing using only bottle openers, slung horns, and trees as pro because I might drop my rack some day
Smashing my head through windshields since I'm bound to get in a car wreck on one of the awful 20 hour drives to get out of the Midwest and into climbing terrain
It all makes sense now......
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