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shimanilami


Jun 12, 2007, 12:49 PM
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Draw breaks in gym
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My pal was climbing in at the local gym (to remain unnamed) last Friday and took a lead fall while going over a roof. The draw (Petzl brand) broke. Fortunately, he was plenty high up and the draws are close enough together, so he was fine, but jeezz ... the gym (and the draws) is only a year old.

Inspection revealed that the draw had been worn through by rubbing over the edge of the roof. Adding a few chain links appears to have eliminated the risk of this happening again.

At any rate, this is not something that is likely to occur outdoors, because you use your own draws and because most people who are putting up new routes have more sense that to put a bolt right at a sharp roof. But I'm giving every roof draw at the gym a closer look.

Just something to think about for all you gym rats out there ...


(This post was edited by shimanilami on Jun 12, 2007, 12:52 PM)


billcoe_


Jun 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Which model draw?

Nylon or Spectra style?

How many times had he had it out before?

Does the cut look clean or ragged?

Are you thinking that he might have gotted battery acid on it? It's pretty incidious and lots of places.... invisible.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Jun 12, 2007, 12:54 PM)


caughtinside


Jun 12, 2007, 12:58 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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sounds like a poor placement of the draw, nothing else. move it up or down a couple inches, no need for chain.


shimanilami


Jun 12, 2007, 1:00 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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To clarify, this was a fixed draw in a gym. It had clearly been worn through by rubbing against the edge of the roof. It was definitely not the draw's fault, or the climbers, etc. It was due to poor placement of the fixed draw near a sharp edge.

And now we've got chains rubbing over that edge. It won't be long before that's a mangled mess.


moose_droppings


Jun 12, 2007, 1:07 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Do like caught advises and simply move where the draw attaches up or down to avoid any rubbing over an edge. Even the chain rubbing there now isn't any good for the wall.

They put a fixed draw were it would rub over an edge at a gym. WTF


majid_sabet


Jun 12, 2007, 1:08 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Ben

post photos

Thanks


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 12, 2007, 2:39 PM)


bent_gate


Jun 12, 2007, 1:09 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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I had a friend who pulled up his rope to make the next clip on a gym climb. This ended up pulling outward on the previous clip, and to our surprise, it pulled that previous bolt right out of the wall!

Apparently the nut on the backside of the wall had come loose. Fortunately, there were clips like every 4 feet, so he wasn't in any ground fall danger. The gym said they went back there and tightened the nuts like every year. If so, everyone better start checking them more often.

Just another thing for all you gym rats out there to think about. (Along with battery acid fumes which are invisible and float along the ground until they come in contact with nylon!)


docburner


Jun 12, 2007, 1:30 PM
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Re: [bent_gate] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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I think this is probably broken draw #2 for the gym, #1 was on a lead test (not sure which gym you are talking about but pretty sure it is the same one)


Partner cracklover


Jun 12, 2007, 1:50 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Same thing happened in one of the local gyms here in Boston. They, too, replaced them with chains. I have read about it at other gyms, too. Beware!

caughtinside wrote:
sounds like a poor placement of the draw, nothing else. move it up or down a couple inches, no need for chain.

Easier said than done. Here's the trouble - the gym wants a draw that can be clipped before you pull the roof, but protects your move through the roof. Also, the underside of the roof itself is generally just plywood and plaster, while just along the edge of the roof you have the steel beams that the roof is made of = easy solid attachments.

Here's a pic to illustrate the point:

(click on the pic for full-sized image)

The red circled draws are the ones that will eventually break unless replaced with chains. The purple circled draw is at the nearest beam under the roof.

GO


sbaclimber


Jun 12, 2007, 2:13 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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A gym here had the same thing happen. The draw was in a similar location to the ones in cracklover's photo. Not over an edge, just next to one. Wore through anyway (it would rub every time someone weighted the rope).
They just put a rubber sleeve over the replacement draw. It won't wear like nylon, and won't beat up the wall like a chain.


(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 12, 2007, 2:30 PM)


caughtinside


Jun 12, 2007, 2:29 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Same thing happened in one of the local gyms here in Boston. They, too, replaced them with chains. I have read about it at other gyms, too. Beware!

caughtinside wrote:
sounds like a poor placement of the draw, nothing else. move it up or down a couple inches, no need for chain.

Easier said than done. Here's the trouble - the gym wants a draw that can be clipped before you pull the roof, but protects your move through the roof. Also, the underside of the roof itself is generally just plywood and plaster, while just along the edge of the roof you have the steel beams that the roof is made of = easy solid attachments.

Here's a pic to illustrate the point:
[IMG]http://i18.tinypic.com/6cd2xpc.jpg[/IMG]
(click on the pic for full-sized image)

The red circled draws are the ones that will eventually break unless replaced with chains. The purple circled draw is at the nearest beam under the roof.

GO

Good illustration gabe, thanks for posting that.

I don't see why that is a necessary spot for the draw though. Just have it just under the roof. Difference of 2 feet. Move is still protected, and the only wear on the sling will be the minimal stuff where the draw gets pulled up a tad and contacts the edge.

Then just have another draw soon after the roof is pulled. gym draws are usually only 3-4' apart anyway.

I don't think you'd be looking at any crazy penjis or anything like that either.

I guess I'd need to hear a more convincing rationale before I'd agree that those draws need to be right there? Move them up 2 inches, no problem.


Tuwie


Jun 12, 2007, 4:56 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Ben

post photos

Thanks

WHY? So you can twist and turn the situation into something it wasnt. You have no interest in this situation other than pics of a worn draw placed in a bad location.

This thread is mostly for the point of watching where draws are placed and keeping an eye on the wear of draws in bad spots, not exploiting an obvious 'accident'.

Glad you're friend is ok and I hope they move the draws/chains to better spot.


dr_feelgood


Jun 12, 2007, 5:23 PM
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Re: [Tuwie] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Tuwie wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ben

post photos

Thanks

WHY? So you can twist and turn the situation into something it wasnt. You have no interest in this situation other than pics of a worn draw placed in a bad location.

This thread is mostly for the point of watching where draws are placed and keeping an eye on the wear of draws in bad spots, not exploiting an obvious 'accident'.

Glad you're friend is ok and I hope they move the draws/chains to better spot.
He's just adding to his spank bank.


fulton


Jun 12, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
To clarify, this was a fixed It was definitely not the draw's fault, or the climbers, etc. It was due to poor placement of the fixed draw near a sharp edge.

I couldn't disagree more. The fault is only the climbers, because;
shimanilami wrote:
it had clearly been worn through.

You've got to follow the same protocol in the gym as you do outside, which means either knowing what you're clipping or inspecting it first.

I have complained in a number of gyms about the condition of slings and draw-placement. To what end is an entirely different rant.

Climbing gym staff generally consists of a couple people who think they know everything leading several people who know nothing at all (hmm.. sounds a little like rc.com as well)--this inevitably leads to huge oversights in upkeep, management, and judgment. The entropy is just astounding.


(This post was edited by fulton on Jun 12, 2007, 5:40 PM)


shimanilami


Jun 12, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Re: [fulton] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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fulton wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
To clarify, this was a fixed It was definitely not the draw's fault, or the climbers, etc. It was due to poor placement of the fixed draw near a sharp edge.

I couldn't disagree more. The fault is only the climbers, because

shimanilami wrote:
it had clearly been worn through.

You've got to follow the same protocol in the gym as you do outside, which means either knowing what you're clipping or inspecting it first.

You're dead on right. Gym climbing makes us stupid. We take for granted that the owners have too much at stake to allow such failures to take place. But gravity never rests, and what does it matter who's liable if you've got a broken back or worse?

Like I said, this is just another thing all us gym rats should keep an eye on.


fulton


Jun 12, 2007, 5:51 PM
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Thanks man


overlord


Jun 13, 2007, 1:04 AM
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Re: [fulton] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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this is not the first time this has happened. gym draws get worn in one spot that than fails. i have heard of a gym that used some metal to round of the edges of plywood (think skatepark edges). and chainlink draws should work just fine, but sady most gym owners dont seem to realize the nadger until someone falls.

anyway, im glad youre ok.


chossmonkey


Jun 13, 2007, 5:10 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Same thing happened in one of the local gyms here in Boston. They, too, replaced them with chains. I have read about it at other gyms, too. Beware!

caughtinside wrote:
sounds like a poor placement of the draw, nothing else. move it up or down a couple inches, no need for chain.

Easier said than done. Here's the trouble - the gym wants a draw that can be clipped before you pull the roof, but protects your move through the roof. Also, the underside of the roof itself is generally just plywood and plaster, while just along the edge of the roof you have the steel beams that the roof is made of = easy solid attachments.

Here's a pic to illustrate the point:

(click on the pic for full-sized image)

The red circled draws are the ones that will eventually break unless replaced with chains. The purple circled draw is at the nearest beam under the roof.

GO
So you are saying the rounded over edges on the roof in the pic aren't doing their job? Or that is a random pic used for illustration only?


svilnit


Jun 13, 2007, 5:42 AM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:

He's just adding to his spank bank.


That's pretty funny!


blueeyedclimber


Jun 13, 2007, 5:59 AM
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caughtinside wrote:

Good illustration gabe, thanks for posting that.

I don't see why that is a necessary spot for the draw though. Just have it just under the roof. Difference of 2 feet. Move is still protected, and the only wear on the sling will be the minimal stuff where the draw gets pulled up a tad and contacts the edge.

Then just have another draw soon after the roof is pulled. gym draws are usually only 3-4' apart anyway.

I don't think you'd be looking at any crazy penjis or anything like that either.

I guess I'd need to hear a more convincing rationale before I'd agree that those draws need to be right there? Move them up 2 inches, no problem.

I think what Gabe is saying is that it may not be possible depending on where the steel girders reside underneath. The gym in question has replaced alll of these with chain draws and it seemed to fix the problem.

Josh


Partner cracklover


Jun 13, 2007, 7:22 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
So you are saying the rounded over edges on the roof in the pic aren't doing their job? Or that is a random pic used for illustration only?

One of those red circled draws broke later in a fall. You do the math.

And BEC is right - you set those draws back under the roof a ways, and you're going to get a lot of climbers with broken ankles from falling above the roof and slamming into the face below.

GO


dingus


Jun 13, 2007, 7:33 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Draw breaks in gym [In reply to]
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Simple case of negligence on the part of the gym.

It seem inevitable to me that some are going to get hurt or die as a result of similar poorly situated and maintained equipment. Their survivors will sue the gym owner and insurance company and win. Liability waivers don't excuse negligence so far as I know.

This ought to be a wake up call, but I doubt it. This gym owner just missed a lawsuit by *that much.*

DMT


Partner cracklover


Jun 13, 2007, 7:40 AM
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dingus wrote:
Simple case of negligence on the part of the gym.

It seem inevitable to me that some are going to get hurt or die as a result of similar poorly situated and maintained equipment. Their survivors will sue the gym owner and insurance company and win. Liability waivers don't excuse negligence so far as I know.

This ought to be a wake up call, but I doubt it. This gym owner just missed a lawsuit by *that much.*

DMT

No kidding! There's been a rash of these lately. I hope all the gym owners are changing out their draws now in advance of getting this failure method in their own gym, but I doubt they communicate that well with each other. Too bad, since a jury would have no sympathy at all for a gym owner who said he had no idea this could be a problem, after the plaintiff calls joe_blow@rc.com as an "expert witness" - who explains that everyone in the known universe has known about this problem for years after multiple reports on internet sites.

GO


scotchie


Jun 13, 2007, 8:25 AM
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dingus wrote:
Simple case of negligence on the part of the gym.

It seem inevitable to me that some are going to get hurt or die as a result of similar poorly situated and maintained equipment. Their survivors will sue the gym owner and insurance company and win. Liability waivers don't excuse negligence so far as I know.

This ought to be a wake up call, but I doubt it. This gym owner just missed a lawsuit by *that much.*

DMT

A lawsuit would also lead to increased insurance rates for ALL gyms, including the most safety-conscious and responsible ones. Unless the climbing gym industry is producing enough revenue to compensate for it, some gyms might not be able to get coverage at all and be forced out-of-business.

I don't have a good solution. You'd think that the word "liability" would make gym owners sh*t their pants and become safety zealots, but that doesn't appear to be the case.


scotchie


Jun 13, 2007, 8:33 AM
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BTW, I saw an equipment failure in a local climbing gym. A draw had sharpened due to climbers lowering from it, someone took a lead fall, and the sharpened draw cut through the sheath and then peeled it off, leaving a ~ 1 foot section of core completely exposed.

The gym has replaced the draw in question, but I have no idea if they've improved safety inspection procedures in general.

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