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What really happened at Hueco?
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fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 5:33 PM
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What really happened at Hueco?
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Over at supertopo, an interesting few comments were made about early conflicts at Hueco Tanks, starting with:

nick d wrote:
In the early eighties there were three guys, Mike Head, Dave Head, I can't remember the third ones first name but of course his last name was Head. Anyway, they ran the show at Hueco Tanks State park outside of El Paso. One of the rangers was a climber and liked them and they were permitted to do whatever they wanted. Hueco has always had a lot of rules regarding fixed anchors, etc... Enter Todd Skinner bagging some hard lines, The Eagle and Gunfighter were two I recall. This did not sit well with the Heads and part of their reaction involved the rangers following Todd around and issuing him as many citations as they could. I think Todd ran into considerable legal difficulties as a result of their animosity.

I think there are frequently suspicions at areas where "bolting" is implicated as causing some sort of "access issue" that the real cause of the problem is traditionalists who make it an issue, by alerting authorities when people start bolting in ways they do not appreciate (e.g. on rappel). Of course, that may or may not be what actually happened at Hueco, but the above post made me want to request more information.

Anyone have any (preferably no worse than second-hand) insight into what went down? Were the Heads and Crump jealous of Skinner's refusal to play by their ridiculous and arbitrary rules? Or perhaps of his unquestionably superior climbing ability? Is this just a bogus rationalization from the pro-Skinner camp to attempt to justify behavior that really did unavoidably result in access problems, in spite of every best effort on the part of the traditionalists to help to avoid them? Or maybe, is there a grain of truth to both?

I have also heard people claim that Skinner's use of glue was a cause of access problems at Hueco, which I find totally unbelievable. Assuming it was actually a problem, can someone explain to me how the park staff would even know glue was being used unless some moronic trad asshole went out of his way to tell them?

Let's hear it, if there's anything to be heard: What really happened at Hueco?


(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 25, 2007, 5:42 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 25, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Re: [fracture] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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I enjoyed the retrobolt thread, but this one, with its insults and snide assumptions right off the bat, smells a little trollish.


curt


Jun 25, 2007, 6:37 PM
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Re: [j_ung] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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I know what happened at Hueco, but I'm not allowed to tell any moronic sport assholes.

Curt


dingus


Jun 25, 2007, 6:41 PM
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Just make it up. Its not like you give a fuck about what really happened anyway.

DMT


knieveltech


Jun 25, 2007, 6:47 PM
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Re: [dingus] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Just make it up. Its not like you give a fuck about what really happened anyway.

DMT

Perhaps not, but I do, and I suspect I'm not alone. Please, gentlemen, if you have information by all means share it.


caughtinside


Jun 25, 2007, 6:48 PM
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Re: [dingus] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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a fine troll indeed. I think if you had toned it down a bit, you really would have set the hook.

Not that I have the faintest clue what happened there, but since this thread doesn't seem to be about the truth anyway, I read somewhere (wildly unreliable hearsay!) that climbers were bouldering right over petroglyphs. I could see that causing a stink.


fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 7:47 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
dingus wrote:
Just make it up. Its not like you give a fuck about what really happened anyway.

DMT

Perhaps not, but I do, and I suspect I'm not alone. Please, gentlemen, if you have information by all means share it.

I can't win with Dingus: he apparently doesn't believe in the concept of conditional respect and refuses to accept what I say about climbing history as an actual representation of what I believe.

If anyone actually cares: this is a real request for information, and I only really care to hear it from people who really know. I think other people may like to know about this also. The events at Hueco Tanks had repercussions internationally---it is a world class climbing area. It would really be worth it for us to hear as many sides of the story as possible. If it actually was ultimately rooted in personal disputes over stupid so-called "ethical" issues (and I have no opinion on that, since I have hardly any information), we need to get that in the open so the mistake can be avoided in the future.


fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
Not that I have the faintest clue what happened there, but since this thread doesn't seem to be about the truth anyway, I read somewhere (wildly unreliable hearsay!) that climbers were bouldering right over petroglyphs. I could see that causing a stink.

Yes. Thanks for adding noise instead of signal.

I'm aware of much of the well-discussed stories of what happened, as well as the park's public justifications, etc. I want new data, specific to this point: was there a significant personal or ethical rivalry going on, and does anyone actually know how much of it may or may not have contributed to the closures.

(Curt, if you are in the know, maybe you can tell knieval instead of me; he might not be a "moronic sport asshole". And I'd find it pretty unsettling if you didn't condemn the (hypothetical) access-threatening behavior I described with the word "asshole" above, as well.)


(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 25, 2007, 7:58 PM)


caughtinside


Jun 25, 2007, 8:00 PM
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fracture wrote:
Yes. Thanks for adding noise instead of signal.

Any time. Thanks for the leading questions. I especially liked the part where you solicit speculation regarding jealously of Skinner's superior strength.


fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 8:02 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
fracture wrote:
Yes. Thanks for adding noise instead of signal.

Any time. Thanks for the leading questions. I especially liked the part where you solicit speculation regarding jealously of Skinner's superior strength.

Skinner was unquestionably the better climber. It is quite plausible that the locals might react unfavorably to him coming in and upsetting their place in the dominance heirarchy. What is hard to understand about this?


(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 25, 2007, 8:03 PM)


caughtinside


Jun 25, 2007, 8:07 PM
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fracture wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
fracture wrote:
Yes. Thanks for adding noise instead of signal.

Any time. Thanks for the leading questions. I especially liked the part where you solicit speculation regarding jealously of Skinner's superior strength.

Skinner was unquestionably the better climber. It is quite plausible that the locals might react unfavorably to him coming in and upsetting their place in the dominance heirarchy. What is hard to understand about this?

Nothing. What is also easy to understand is that you've already created a nice little conclusion you wish to support with facts you don't currently have, facts which include speculation as to someone else's state of mind. It's my belief that inclusion of your hypothesis has poisoned any results you might get.

And maybe I missed the internet memo where I am required to respond germanely to any question you might ask?


dingus


Jun 25, 2007, 8:08 PM
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No no no caught the better part was where he blamed traditionalists for rap bolting.

Fracture you demonstrate your disrespect for the heritage of climbing with nearly every post.

DMT


fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 8:10 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
fracture wrote:
Skinner was unquestionably the better climber. It is quite plausible that the locals might react unfavorably to him coming in and upsetting their place in the dominance heirarchy. What is hard to understand about this?

Nothing. What is also easy to understand is that you've already created a nice little conclusion you wish to support with facts you don't currently have, facts which include speculation as to someone else's state of mind.

"Speculation as to someone else's state of mind"?

.... You're damn clever. (Or maybe you're really damn unclever. I can't tell.)


caughtinside


Jun 25, 2007, 8:15 PM
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fracture wrote:
.... You're damn clever. (Or maybe you're really damn unclever. I can't tell.)

Hey thanks. Likewise, I'm totally whelmed by the logic of all your posts. I just can't tell whether it's over or under.

Edited to include cute italics. I saw them in fracture's post and just had to have them myself. You know, to make sure someone sees it and understands emphasis and intonation.


(This post was edited by caughtinside on Jun 25, 2007, 8:20 PM)


fracture


Jun 25, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Re: [dingus] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
No no no caught the better part was where he blamed traditionalists for rap bolting.

Fracture you demonstrate your disrespect for the heritage of climbing with nearly every post.

DMT

I've given up on Dingus (he is apparently immune to rational thinking): but in case anyone else cares, here's a mostly-relevant elaboration of my thoughts about climbing history and respect.


(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 25, 2007, 8:19 PM)


caughtinside


Jun 25, 2007, 8:24 PM
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fracture wrote:
dingus wrote:
No no no caught the better part was where he blamed traditionalists for rap bolting.

Fracture you demonstrate your disrespect for the heritage of climbing with nearly every post.

DMT

I've given up on Dingus (he is apparently immune to rational thinking): but in case anyone else cares, here's a mostly-relevant elaboration of my thoughts about climbing history and respect.

Can I summarize?

JBT said a woman would never climb .12c. Now let's add this dogging bolt so I can send with three fewer tries.

Good stuff, Jordo!


knieveltech


Jun 25, 2007, 8:34 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] What really happened at Hueco? [In reply to]
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Damn, looks like J_ung called it. I feel like a dumbass now, I thought this was an actual request for information instead of setting the stage for another flameout like the retro-bolt thread.

*spits out hook, wanders off to play elsewhere*


fracture


Jun 26, 2007, 8:18 AM
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Another interesting post in the supertopo thread:

nick d wrote:
Hey Philo and Hankster, You are right on about the 3rd guy being James Crump. I remember we called him Head as a joke, part of the Head Mafia. But I don't think I am so wrong about them getting the rangers after Todd. Philo is correct in saying that Todd made his own problems by not sticking to the style dictated by the locals, and they in turn were very adamant in their complaints about him to the rangers. Who did you think filled in the rangers on climbing ethics? As I recall, it wasn't really legal to drill at all there, but the locals were allowed to drill all the bolts they wanted to, which to be honest,was not many! They put up some incredibly scary routes. I liked all those guys as people, but I was (and still am) totally against rap bolting. When I first met Todd at Hueco I was prepared not to like him at all because of his climbing ethics, but he turned out to be a really great guy. I liked him a lot and had some great times with him. I still have more respect for the ground up, totally risking your life ethic. I was always very impressed with the courage shown in developing those routes at Hueco. I always thought Mike Head was one of the nerviest guys I ever met. Please don't think I am bad rapping anyone I mentioned because I have great respect for all of them. I'm just another old guy reminiscing.

If anyone is lurking with real information who can confirm or deny this version of events: please post. If the Heads and Crump really did "fill in the rangers" about climbing ethics, that's something we need to have in the open for understanding what happened and avoiding similar mistakes in the future.


(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 26, 2007, 8:20 AM)


dingus


Jun 26, 2007, 8:21 AM
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fracture wrote:
I've given up on Dingus (he is apparently immune to rational thinking): but in case anyone else cares,

No one does. Your rationalizations are only impressive to yourself. Your disrespect however, shines through every post.

DMT


jbak


Jun 26, 2007, 11:11 AM
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fracture wrote:
Were the Heads and Crump jealous of Skinner's refusal to play by their ridiculous and arbitrary rules?

Since you don't know anything about it, how can you say what was "ridiculous" or "arbitrary" ? If Mike had any rules I suspect they were well thought out. He put up some very stout routes in impeccable style and thereby is deserving of some respect.


billcoe_


Oct 23, 2007, 7:44 PM
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jbak wrote:

Since you don't know anything about it, how can you say what was "ridiculous" or "arbitrary" ? If Mike had any rules I suspect they were well thought out. He put up some very stout routes in impeccable style and thereby is deserving of some respect.

I thought he was just asking based on some vague rumors. If you know the truth, why not just share it?

Otherwise, I'm going to STFU and recommend the same for people who don't know.

I'm really curious as to the truth as well.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Jan 13, 2008, 9:03 PM)


CinnamonJohnson


Oct 24, 2007, 7:02 AM
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"Look out John Sherman, I'm a bad man!"


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