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abkaiser
Oct 2, 2002, 4:24 PM
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Lead climbing is something I'd like to attempt someday. However, I've just purchased and read "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" for the last two years, and I'm wondering about lead falls. Many of the accidents in the book talk about people getting seriously injured from relatively short lead falls, like 15-20 feet. Yet here on the site, you'll see threads casually mentioning 20, 30, 40-foot lead fall whippers. What is the ratio to safe lead falls versus lead falls involving accidents? When leading, is it okay to fall, or should the fall be seen as "don't fall unless absolutely necessary"? Thanks, Andy
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hroldan
Oct 2, 2002, 4:50 PM
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I'm looking forward leading. As I have seen, danger depends on how you are managing the rope (remember the rope behind my leg topic?) also, if you fall just starting the route is dangerous than when you are already up. I guess there's a lot of factors. I've seen videos of long falls, just like "bungee" but on overhangs or top of faves. In a vertical wall this could be very dangerous. [ This Message was edited by: hroldan on 2002-10-02 09:52 ]
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melonhead
Oct 2, 2002, 5:21 PM
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It all depends. Is your gear solid? Does your belayer know what he is doing? Is there a ledge below you? Stuff like this comes into play. That, and if you don't want to fall, don't climb.
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chuckd278
Oct 2, 2002, 5:51 PM
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Just speaking in my home area of climbing. Many of the routes are protected good but at times you have to run it out 20, 30, 40, 50, etc feet because you have no where to place gear. I think the reason you see more accidents at a lesser runout is because it is a more common. Meaning that if I can place gear every 10 feet or so I will. When I take a fall from 10 it equals 20 or so. Most people I know like to place a piece about every 7 feet. That put most of their falls in the range you are talking about. More fall = more accidents at that range. On routes where I know that I will be running it out I will make sure that my gear will hold a wipper and I also make sure that I know how hard I have to push off if needed. All this makes me extra careful not to fall where as with a route that I can protect every 7 feet I will take more chances. I may try to dyno stuff and I also may only place a single piece where as in a long runout I may place more depending on the situation. Just a thought. PS: It is bad form to fall on any climb IMHO. Chuck [ This Message was edited by: chuckd278 on 2002-10-02 10:54 ]
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hugepedro
Oct 2, 2002, 5:51 PM
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It's not so much the falling as it is the stopping that causes trouble. Never seen any data on ratio of falls without injury to falls with injury, so can't comment on that. Whether or not you get injured depends on terrain, pro, fall factor, and your belayer. If the terrain is overhanging where you won't hit anything if your pro holds, then the only thing you really have to worry about (well, besides your pro holding, and what will happen if it doesn't, and assuming you have a competent belayer) is the fall factor. High fall factors will injure you even if you don't hit anything. From what I've read, .8 is about where the risk of injury starts. Personally, I try to place pro so that I limit my possible fall factors to .5 or below (which isn't to say that I don't run it out sometimes when necessary, but I try not to). I don't worry about it so much when I'm sport leading (though I'm still calculating fall factors, and looking at the landing, and deciding if I need to place additional pro). When trad leading I try REALLY hard not to fall. When Ice leading I don't fall (at least I haven't yet and I don't ever want to). If there's a chance of hitting anything during the fall (decking, ledging, or doinking on the way down), then your risk of injury significantly increases. In most of those short falls you read about in "Accidents" the leader hit something. Falls of seemingly short distance can break bones if you hit something. Me? Less than 10 foot fall. Decked. Broken ankle. Surgery. Screws. Plate. Not fun.
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ronniefrown
Oct 2, 2002, 5:57 PM
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A lead fall is more dangerous at the beginning, like hroldan said, than at the end because of the amount of rope running through the system. The ratio of rope between the clip and you, and the belayer and the last clip is your fall factor (i think, someone correct me if i'm wrong). a factor of 2 is the worst (you never made it to the clip) and from there it just gets better. and if you really don't want to get hurt, only lead overhangs, then there's no chance of smashing a bodypart on the way down
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hugepedro
Oct 2, 2002, 6:20 PM
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Distance of fall divided by total length of rope out = fall factor. Example. You've climbed 100 feet. Your last piece of pro is 10 feet below you. Your fall of 20 feet divided by 100 feet of rope = .2 fall factor.
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tradguy
Oct 2, 2002, 6:39 PM
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Conversely, you're 2 pitches up a route, and you're 15 feet above your belayer without any gear in. If you peel, you'll fall 30 feet on 15 feet of rope (assuming you don't smash into your belayer or a ledge). That would be a fall factor 2, and would very much suck. This is why on a multipitch climb, you should always put in a piece right away on the upper pitches, or at the very least clip into the highest point of the belay anchor, so you have some pro between you and the belay device. [ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-02 11:41 ]
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timpanogos
Oct 2, 2002, 7:02 PM
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Many are hurt on short falls on vertical to over vertical climbs by a violent slaming 90 degrees from vertical, into the wall as the pro catches them. This is caused by a non-dynamic (too tight) of a belay. A nice little arc of rope from belayer to first bolt, with an added roll up on balls of feet/step in towards the first bolt as the faller loads the rope, will greatly reduce the slaming effect. This is especially important if your climber is much smaller/lighter than the belayer.
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abkaiser
Oct 3, 2002, 3:15 PM
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So this is a very different situation from say toproping: Not only is the belaying technique different, but there's a falling technique, too. Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to get tutored by a pro on this when I decide to take that step!
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fixxervi6
Oct 3, 2002, 4:30 PM
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I took a lead class, and they said that fall factor was critical, like, in the first stretch of the climb, keep in pro every few feet for at least a few pieces of pro, then you can start to run it out a little as you get more rope out, critical on everything, like a rusty bolt, fall factor can determan the amount of stress on a piece of pro.
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mountainmonkey
Oct 3, 2002, 4:44 PM
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http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=GDEPAROI# play around with the fall simulator
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bradhill
Oct 3, 2002, 5:12 PM
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Well, sport climbers fall all the time. Sport routes tend to be vertical to overhanging, usually one-pitch and use fixed pro thats usually reliable. Lots of sport leaders fall many times a day. Trad climbers usually don't like to fall, especially on multi-pitch, even on good gear. Its not at all uncommon to find trad leaders who climb A LOT and at high standards and haven't taken a whipper in years. This tends to be the product of an attitude of getting in a lot of pitches and moving quickly, rather than pushing limits, and even "safe" falls take a lot of time and make gear a PITA to clean, if they don't ruin it outright. In ice and alpine, the motto is "The leader must not fall." It's a lucky alpinist who survives a fall on a serious route. After 20 years of putting up routes at the edge of possibility, Barry Blanchard took his first fall ever last year while ice climbing. So, don't be totally freaked, safety systems are good, but if you are, you do have the option of just not falling. Really, I'm serious. I know great climbers who've fallen less than half a dozen times in 20 year climbing careers.
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billcoe_
Oct 3, 2002, 6:59 PM
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Yes. http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=16980&forum=25&13 But Bradhills answer is better. Learn all you can and don't fall. Bill
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boulderpaul
Oct 3, 2002, 7:02 PM
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u are a girl
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rocknpowda
Oct 3, 2002, 8:47 PM
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Everyone has different thresholds for risk. control all the factors you can, IE get a good belayer, pay attention to where the rope is while leading, put enough pro in, etc. then just have a good time. If you take a whipper occasionally, you're better off for it. If the whipper is fatal in spite of stacking the odds in your favor, your card just got pulled-It was just your time. If all of this scares you, Don't lead. Sounds like there are plenty of climbers who thoroughly enjoy the sport but don't lead.
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rocks4jules
Oct 3, 2002, 9:03 PM
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There's the "girl" thing again. What's with that?! Anyway, regarding falling, I believe this is a sport/art just like anything else. You probably will take some falls on sport lead, however, the more you climb, the less likely it is you will fall. Practice and climb as much as possible. Just push yourself a little more each time you go out. Then your confidence will grow and help you maintain great climbing techniques. Fear is the biggest issue -- not anything else. Meditation and self-talk helps when you are out there leading, so just take your time and have fun. Jules
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jt512
Oct 4, 2002, 1:20 AM
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Quote: Jules: You probably will take some falls on sport lead, however, the more you climb, the less likely it is you will fall. Actually, in sport climbing, it should be the other way around. When you are starting out, you should strive not to fall, but as you gain experience, you should push yourself harder and take more falls. When you first start sport climbing, you will probably be climbing routes that are less than vertical. Falls on these routes are risky because if you fall you hit the rock. Also, as a beginning leader, you probably haven't learned to keep the rope out of the way so that it doesn't flip you over if you fall. And, if you are a beginner, there is a good chance your belyer is, too, and the combination is less than ideally safe. As you gain experience sport climbing, you will start to climb steeper, vertical and overhanging routes, on which, if you fall, you fall into air. It takes a skilled belayer to keep you from swinging into the wall on such climbs, but assuming you have a good belayer and have learned to keep the rope in front of your legs at all times, most falls should be fairly safe. As Brad Hill mentioned, many sport climbers take multiple lead falls every climbing day. -Jay
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wlderdude
Oct 4, 2002, 2:08 AM
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I think wearing a hlemet makes the biggest diference when it comes to lead fatalities. Check those accident reports and you will probably see a patern. Helmeted climber still get hurt (ocasionally), but no helmet climbers often die or spend some time in a coma. Most of your body heals fine, but a head that got slammed into the rock wall when the body got flipped is often beyond reapir. When people say climbing is safe, tehy are generally referint to top rope. Leading is dangerous. Fun, but dangerous. Just be careful. My opinion is that lead climbing is about as dangerous as riding a bike in traffic (no imerical evidence). Anyone who want to live when the truck hits them will be wearing a helmet and ride defnesively.
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topher
Oct 4, 2002, 3:01 AM
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leading is perfectly safe!! as long as, you have good gear, you protect things like ledges and the ground, and your belayer know whats going on. other than that its safe. but like every thing stuff can go wrong.
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okieterry
Oct 4, 2002, 3:02 AM
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When you start leading, choose well protected climbs that are several grades below the hardest grade that you toprope at. Do lots and lots of climbs at that grade and try not to fall. When you are feeeling really comfortable, try a slightly harder one and so on. A smart climber is confident and comfortable and can tell when it gets hard before they fall. Then you can either downclimb and rest or, if everything looks good (good pro and no ledge to hit), go for it.
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