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pappy
Mar 26, 2007, 10:16 PM
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So John Sherman describes it as a ball in a towel or something and hitting the rock with it..... I'm lost. can some one please fill me in.
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thomasribiere
Mar 26, 2007, 10:49 PM
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The "pof" is a mix of chalk and rosin (pine tree resin) and is typical from Fontainebleau : put into a towel or handkerchief closed by a lace (like a purse), and hit against the rock (on a hold), the pof goes trough the stitch of the fabric and is so put on the rock, while in the same time the dust is washed away by the fabric.
So with one gesture, you "clean" the rock from its dust and you put some "pof" on the rock.
I will look for a pic on the web or take one myself (or maybe booger or paolo75 have one...)
NB1 : usually, "pof" is replaced by pure chalk.
NB2 : its seems that it's not that useful to put "pof" directly on the rock.
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jakedatc
Mar 26, 2007, 11:23 PM
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not sure why this is in Euro but please do not use Pof.. It is basically pine rosin that is sticky for a short time but becomes greasy. and unlike chalk it can't be cleaned off the rock so it just fills stuff in
it's banned at comps . that should tell you something.
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pappy
Mar 26, 2007, 11:44 PM
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Yeah i heard it was banned in many places. I was just wondering why because I was not sure what it really is.
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jakedatc
Mar 27, 2007, 12:23 AM
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yea.. that's why.. i guess it makes things pretty glassy and that's no fun for anyone. I haven't been to Font where it seem to be used the most to see it myself.
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booger
Mar 27, 2007, 7:58 AM
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jakedatc wrote: not sure why this is in Euro but please do not use Pof.. It is basically pine rosin that is sticky for a short time but becomes greasy. and unlike chalk it can't be cleaned off the rock so it just fills stuff in it's banned at comps . that should tell you something.
This is probably in the European section because pof is a Fontainebleau "thing". It is not banned there, and is preferred by locals to chalk. As a matter of fact, you can argue with the Bleausards all day long, but every single one of the old hardmen use it. It is the sound of the forest - pof hitting the rock. Arguments have gone back and forth for a long time Americans are chalk addicts, Frenchies do it another way.
Got any proof on the harmful effects besides anecdotal stories or "comps ban them"? I agree that poffed holds tend to get slimy but arguing with almost one hundred years of tradition in a well established area will take some convincing.
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gritstoner
Mar 27, 2007, 10:49 AM
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it may be preffered by the residents of font, but that does not make it a good thing.
the holds all become glassy and polished as the resin sets on the rock. meaning that the only way to get any friction on it is to place more pof on it. the cycle goes on.
think about it this way. what is amber made from? its old tree resin!!!!!!! granted its had time to fosilise, but in one hundred years, pof still has the ability to form a shiny rock like substance over the rest of the boulder rendering the fiction useless.
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booger
Mar 27, 2007, 12:42 PM
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gritstoner wrote: it may be preffered by the residents of font, but that does not make it a good thing.. the holds all become glassy and polished as the resin sets on the rock. meaning that the only way to get any friction on it is to place more pof on it. the cycle goes on.
I'm not sure you read my post. I never said it was a "good thing", I said that a century of tradition is a difficult thing to change. I also indicated that I have argued over this point with Bleausards to no avail. However, it is the accepted ethics of the area. I don't agree with bolting up cracks, writing the names of routes at the base of the crag, chipping holds, or bright spandex-wearing either... but that all happens in France, and Italy, and other places in Europe too.
I'll agree with aahi's quote from the 2004 thread (to which you also replied) about Rosin:
In reply to: I there actual scientific evidence? or is most of this based on personal/regional experiences. I have been to fontainebleau and have been sneered at by french climbers because i was using chalk, there they use the same argument for not using chalk as we use the same argument for not using pof/resin/rosin. I trust both side's arguments since they've climbing fontainebleau for more than half a century, and obviously people here have had polishing experiences with pof. I do believe it could have something to do with the type of rock but I may be wrong. Chalk does slime up holds because it absorbs water, which (in a friction sensitive place like fontainebleau from all the slopers) would explain why the frenchies (no disrespect, i'm french myself) would not want people "greasing up" their highly technical boulders. Basically even as most people disaprove of pof, I believe the reason for it's used at fontainebleau is part of a regional ethical issue. I think that respecting an area's ethics is part of the experience of a new climbing area. And as far as fontainebleau being polished, The areas that I have climbed there gave me perfect-beautiful-fine sand-sloper-friction, the best sandstone I've ever climbed. Anyway, repect an area's ethics because like someone said before even though something may give you an advantage personally remember that you may be messing it up for everybody else (and for yourself in the future) because all climbing areas are for everyone. Maui P.S. Do you guys have examples of places in the states that have been affected by the use of pof? oh and I've used chalk my whole climbing carrer if you're interested.
Including the bit about scientific evidence.
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thomasribiere
Mar 27, 2007, 4:35 PM
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I went bouldering with 2 friends today, in La Capelle, near Nîmes. So I could take pictures of this "pof" device. But please note, that in the one I photographed, there's was only chalk. I will submit the pics and then link them in the thread.
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jakedatc
Mar 27, 2007, 4:44 PM
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Booger.. i agree it's Font's ethics so whatever they do is their own thing.. i was responding to Pappy since i see he is from a nearby state of NH which does not need to have things covered in resin.
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thomasribiere
Mar 27, 2007, 4:53 PM
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I have to add that pof is less and less used in Bleau. The pros say it doesn't leave trace ; the cons say it screws the rock. But too much chalk is bad as well...
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jakedatc
Mar 27, 2007, 6:11 PM
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nah man.. i got what you were saying
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overlord
Mar 29, 2007, 12:55 PM
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well, resin is ok in some areas, but definitely not ok in slovenia
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thomasribiere
Mar 31, 2007, 4:57 PM
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On this one, Lionel is holding a famous handmade "sac à pof" : the purse side is filled with chalk, not with pof.
Here, Lionel is usin the "sac à pof" : the loose end of the fabric is used to remove dust and chalk from the holds, while by ending the filled side, Lionel's right hand is automatically covered with chalk. He just have to put some on his left hand.
This piece of gear is widely used by Euro boulderers, I don't remember whether I saw it in the USA or not. As I said in an above post, some rosin can be put inside, alone or mixed with chalk.
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boulderror
Apr 13, 2007, 2:58 PM
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resin is preferred in bleau because it's a sandstone area. if you use chalk it becomes more pollished then with resin because of the rocktype. just don't use it on limestone because there it's the other way around and chalk is better then resin for the holds.
BD
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stone_d_cologne
Apr 18, 2007, 10:06 AM
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thomas, I have to correct you on the 'towel ghost' (as we call it).
It's NOT filled with a mixture of collophonium and chalk. some might do that. but its only the resin inside.
the other end of the towel is used to dust off the holds or get them dry from sweaty fingers, NOT the filled 'ball' end of the towel.
furthermore, pof is only used on footholds, shoes and hands.
this is like they do it. but everybody might have their own style, based on personal belief.
my belief is that using chalk to dry my hands and clean holds is enough to do the job.
what destroys the friction on the rock long term is repeated use of the rock anyway.
but: DON'T USE EXCESS CHALK, BRUSH IT OFF, DON'T MAKE OR LEAVE ANY UNNESSECARY TICKMARKS!
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thomasribiere
Apr 18, 2007, 11:08 AM
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stone_d_cologne wrote: thomas, I have to correct you on the 'towel ghost' (as we call it). It's NOT filled with a mixture of collophonium and chalk. some might do that. but its only the resin inside. the other end of the towel is used to dust off the holds or get them dry from sweaty fingers, NOT the filled 'ball' end of the towel. furthermore, pof is only used on footholds, shoes and hands.
About point 1, it really depends on people.
About point 2, you are totally correct as the pics above show it. When I type my first post, I hadn't the scene in mind anymore (I myself don't use that).
I like the "ghost towel" image!
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camilleguignard
Aug 3, 2007, 6:15 PM
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we are just back from bleau and there they kind of speak differently about pof vs chalk
here is what COSIROC say about it (chalk vs POF)
http://www.cosiroc.org/Some_recommendations_to_cli_mn.html
Unless absolutely necessary, we recommend that chalk not be used. While certainly useful for absorbing sweat and, temporarily, increasing the adherence of the hands to the rock, unfortunately this ignorant substance cannot distinguish between the noble sweat of the climber and the ambient humidity. As a result, once on the rock, it imbibes water and provides the adherence of a bar of soap while smoothing over the natural roughness of the rock. For this reason, ever greater amounts of chalk are necessary not only to absorb sweat but the dew of previous nights. Instead of chalk, we recommend using rosin (``pof'' in French climbing jargon -- on sale Au Vieux Campeur and SOS escalade), still called ``colophane'', which does not absorb water, increases hand and foot adherence and, finally, is bio- and helio-degradable. Chalk is soluble in diluted hydrochloric acid.
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pappy
Aug 3, 2007, 6:37 PM
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I mainly climb granite. What would be better for the rock? And when i use chalk i make sure to clean the problem at the end of the day.
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jakedatc
Aug 3, 2007, 7:26 PM
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Pappy.. it's been said.. Do NOT use Pof/rosin on stuff in the US..
read in the Ethics section of New England Bouldering by Tim Kemple Jr. Pof: Nope along with chipping, gluing, torching, dry tooling (on boulders and established routes)
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But in Rome... wouldn't have noticed any polished whatsoever in Bleau, so it can't be too bad. 
