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bigfatrock
Sep 4, 2007, 2:42 PM
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This past weekend while climbing at HCR in Arkansas I realized how important stopper knots are; no matter how short the cliff side is. In the case of this situation, the route was only 45-50 feet high. With a 60mm rope this leaves plenty of extra rope for a rappel.
A friend of mind almost rappelled off the end of his rope after climbing a route to retrieve a rope that got stuck in the anchors.
Since all our other ropes where hanging on routes he used the other end of the rope to climb up and pull out the stuck rope. After pulling the rope through the anchors and making sure he was on rappel he began his decent.
A belayer on the rout next to him noticed his mistake and began calling out but did not know his name so he never heard her. She got the attention of another woman in our party who yelled out, "Phillip, your out of rope".
He stopped with about 18 inches of rope left. He quickly brought out his sling to clip into a bolt a few feed away but in his panicked dropped the carabiner. So after attaching two quick draws together he was able to clip into the bolt and feed his rope back down to the ground.
A stopper knot would have kept him from rappelling off the end, but even more important I think was he should have double checked to make sure his rope was on the ground and his belayer shouldn't have walked away and made sure his rope was on the ground as well (thought some may disagree since he called off belay.
Since witnessing this I have seen the importance of partners double checking each other all the time. We need to look out for one another. Thankfully the accident was stopped from happening, but I number of things could have been done to have kept the even near accident from occurring.
(This post was edited by bigfatrock on Sep 6, 2007, 2:41 AM)
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angry
Sep 4, 2007, 2:49 PM
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A stopper knot is part of my anchor cleaning to rappel process.
Once clipped into the anchor I tie a bight of rope and clip it to me to keep from dropping it. Then I untie and thread through the chains. I then tie a stopper knot. Then I untie the bight and pull the rope through.
The knot helps not only to make the rappel safer, but it makes it impossible to drop a rope and strand myself at the anchor.
I also rappel slowly, so I can see and fix problems like your friend had.
I'm glad he got out of this with only a lesson learned.
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desertwanderer81
Sep 5, 2007, 10:08 PM
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A lot of people think I'm silly for being so firm in the usage of that little knot at the end of the rope.
Although I'll admit even I don't bother with a 40-50' sport climb.
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cchildre
Sep 5, 2007, 10:22 PM
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Only times I don't bother...is when I can see both tails on the ground piled high, overkill style...but they really should be tied anyhow, you never know right.
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majid_sabet
Sep 5, 2007, 10:49 PM
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change the title and replace with
18 inches to death zone
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majid_sabet
Sep 6, 2007, 12:27 AM
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krosbakken wrote: majid_sabet wrote: change the title and replace with 18 inches to death zoneYa that would be a sweet title and everyone would read it. 
I used to think that experienced climbers are by far safer but these days; I feel 1-3 years n00bs are much better in double checking their rig than those with 1000 climbs under their harnesses. Why 1 to 3 years experienced noobs are safer? Because they have not built enough confidence in their skill to do things automatically so they have a tendency to check things up like a maniac. More experienced climbers, even due by far are better in rigging, have a tendency to forget about the most basic safety factors and they keep falling and falling and falling to base as simple as not putting a no stopper knot at the end of that line.
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Gmburns2000
Sep 6, 2007, 1:08 AM
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A prussic would have helped too.
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bigfatrock
Sep 6, 2007, 2:43 AM
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That might have helped, but with as little as he had left it still could have slid through.
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dynoho
Sep 6, 2007, 3:28 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: change the title and replace with 18 inches to death zone
Right, the route was 45-50 feet. He probably rapped most of it leaving less than 10 feet in this instance. DEATH??
Now, you make an observation (again) about experience being 1-3 years. Where do you come up with these figures? The climbing log or profile? I hope you realize that this is far from a complete snapshot of most climbers history. Look at yours.
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camplicated
Sep 6, 2007, 4:29 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: With a 60 mm rope this leaves plenty of extra rope for a rappel.
doubtful 
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bigfatrock
Sep 6, 2007, 4:35 AM
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dynoho wrote: majid_sabet wrote: change the title and replace with 18 inches to death zoneRight, the route was 45-50 feet. He probably rapped most of it leaving less than 10 feet in this instance. DEATH?? Now, you make an observation (again) about experience being 1-3 years. Where do you come up with these figures? The climbing log or profile? I hope you realize that this is far from a complete snapshot of most climbers history. Look at yours.
Actually he was only about 10 feet from the rap anchors. Leaving him about 30 feet off the ground with big boulders under him acting as a "crash pad". Death may not have been certain but he would have been severely injured.
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dynoho
Sep 6, 2007, 2:37 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: In the case of this situation, the route was only 45-50 feet high. With a 60mm rope this leaves plenty of extra rope for a rappel. ... Since all our other ropes where hanging on routes he used the other end of the rope to climb up and pull out the stuck rope. After pulling the rope through the anchors and making sure he was on rappel he began his decent.
Maybe I missed something, but how was he only 10 feet from the top? Did he only pull ten feet through the anchors, or did he pull 180 feet through? On a climb that short, there should have been more rope on the ground than on the wall, I don't get it.
Stoppers are good. Get in the habit for when the climbs are longer.
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bigfatrock
Sep 6, 2007, 2:42 PM
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One end of the rope was on the ground, on the other end he only pulled about 10-12 feet.
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dynoho
Sep 6, 2007, 2:56 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: One end of the rope was on the ground, on the other end he only pulled about 10-12 feet.
Ok, wow. Nobody in your party noticed? A bi-colored rope may have been of use in this scenario.
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lena_chita
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Sep 6, 2007, 3:14 PM
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angry wrote: A stopper knot is part of my anchor cleaning to rappel process. Once clipped into the anchor I tie a bight of rope and clip it to me to keep from dropping it. Then I untie and thread through the chains. I then tie a stopper knot. Then I untie the bight and pull the rope through. The knot helps not only to make the rappel safer, but it makes it impossible to drop a rope and strand myself at the anchor.
Yep, that's exactly what I do, too.
The other thing I always have (since we are talking single-pitch climbing here) is my partner on the ground ready for fireman's belay. The same partner usually confirms that both strands of rope are on the ground.
As far as I am concerned, the belayers' duty is not over until the climber is on the ground-- even if the climber is rapelling, and belayer took him/her off the belay device, the belayer should never walk away with the climber still up there on the rock.
I am glad your friend was O.K., Bigfatrock.
I am sure having a big group and many ropes up, and starting with the unorthodox situation of already having the rope stuck up at the anchor b/c someone pulled it through without untying have all contributed to the distraction that caused your friend to forget his safety check. Lessons learned...
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valeberga
Sep 6, 2007, 3:29 PM
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Glad someone could save him from himself, but let's not fail to mention that knots aren't going to save you from being a retard. Sorry, it had to be said.
Knot or no, if one does not actively watch for the ends as they rap, or if they begin rapping without an accurate estimate of how far down the ends (do or will) reach +/- a few meters, then they shouldn't be allowed* to set up their own rappels.
(*by anyone who cares about them)
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campo
Sep 6, 2007, 6:54 PM
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If he did only pull 10-12 feet through, you might want to give him a few pointers on basic rapping.
True, it is a mistake that any can make, but when you rap, it is best to have a solid routine.
For example, before I remove myself from the bomber anchor, I do the following (not in any particular order).
1. Is the rope properly threaded through my atc and is my biner locked?
2. Is my rope through both of the anchor rings?
3. Do I have a stopper know rigged and a prussic?
4. Am I looking at my center of the rope knot?
5. Is the rope snagged?
6. Is my belayer paying attention, even though it is not required, she can pick out things I cant see from the rap.
7. Double check everything again.
Rapping is, I think, the most dangerous part of climbing. You cant be too careful!
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joeforte
Sep 6, 2007, 7:04 PM
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What exactly happened that he only ended up pulling 10 feet of rope through the anchors?
The weight of the rope on the other side would pull 10 feet through no prob.
He must have been distracted. Were there any snorg teeshirt girls nearby?
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majid_sabet
Sep 6, 2007, 7:06 PM
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I post this many times in RC, there we go again
Let’s get down to business; you are on top and ready to lower yourself, here are few reminders, notes ,comments and questions you may want to ask yourself.
$ Am I tied in to any thing on top while setting up my system
$ How is my anchor, is it bomb proof and safe
# Did I wear my harness correctly
# What type of belay device am I going to use today
#$ Do I have the proper training with this device or is it my first time
#$ Does my rope size is a correct size with this belay device
#$ How do I slow my descent with this device and or stop myself
$ Do I have a backup in place to stop my sudden descent
#@ Do I need to wear gloves for this long rappel
$ How old is this rope
$ Why am I descending too fast
#$ How far am I descending this time
#$ Does the end of this rope reaches the ground
$ Since this is a multi rappel, do I have the end of the rope tied in case I fall
@ Where are my next rap stations
$ How good is my next rap station
$ Do I need to beef up my next station, if so do I have the materials to do this job
@ They lied, there are no second rap station, what am I going to do now
@ How long would it take to get down, it is getting dark, do I need a flashlight
$ If using two rope, what are the hazards of pulling the rope, getting it stuck
@# Sh*t I forgot to tie a safety knot and one end is 16 feet shorter, how do I fix it
@ Is taking longer than I thought, its getting cold and windy, where is my parka
@ I was using this prusik as back up and now it is locked, how do I unlock it
@ Ohh Fu^k I dropped my ATC, how do I rappel now
# Some dude told me about rappelling with that weird knot and a biner, I forgot how to do it and I am stuck in here with no belay device
$ Stop swinging with that rope dude, do not you see the sharp edge above
@ I feel so happy to be down but sh*t this is wrong canyon
#$ I am sacred of rappelling ,can you lower me with your device
@ Based on actual accident report where climber got rescued
# Based on actual accident report where climber got injured
$ Based on actual accident report where climber got killed
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Sep 6, 2007, 7:13 PM)
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coastal_climber
Sep 10, 2007, 1:11 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I post this many times in RC, there we go again Let’s get down to business; you are on top and ready to lower yourself, here are few reminders, notes ,comments and questions you may want to ask yourself. $ Am I tied in to any thing on top while setting up my system $ How is my anchor, is it bomb proof and safe # Did I wear my harness correctly # What type of belay device am I going to use today #$ Do I have the proper training with this device or is it my first time #$ Does my rope size is a correct size with this belay device #$ How do I slow my descent with this device and or stop myself $ Do I have a backup in place to stop my sudden descent #@ Do I need to wear gloves for this long rappel $ How old is this rope $ Why am I descending too fast #$ How far am I descending this time #$ Does the end of this rope reaches the ground $ Since this is a multi rappel, do I have the end of the rope tied in case I fall @ Where are my next rap stations $ How good is my next rap station $ Do I need to beef up my next station, if so do I have the materials to do this job @ They lied, there are no second rap station, what am I going to do now @ How long would it take to get down, it is getting dark, do I need a flashlight $ If using two rope, what are the hazards of pulling the rope, getting it stuck @# Sh*t I forgot to tie a safety knot and one end is 16 feet shorter, how do I fix it @ Is taking longer than I thought, its getting cold and windy, where is my parka @ I was using this prusik as back up and now it is locked, how do I unlock it @ Ohh Fu^k I dropped my ATC, how do I rappel now # Some dude told me about rappelling with that weird knot and a biner, I forgot how to do it and I am stuck in here with no belay device $ Stop swinging with that rope dude, do not you see the sharp edge above @ I feel so happy to be down but sh*t this is wrong canyon #$ I am sacred of rappelling ,can you lower me with your device @ Based on actual accident report where climber got rescued # Based on actual accident report where climber got injured $ Based on actual accident report where climber got killed
lol
>Cam
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2007, 5:23 PM
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Knots in the ends of the ropes can get you killed. Several times in the last 25 years i have had to do risky things to get the rope unstuck due to knots getting stuck. Never had a stopper knott save me. What is more inportant is to know where the middle of your rope is. Use an auto block backup on your LEG LOOP NOT ABOVE YOUR RAP DEVISE. Allways watch the ropes as you rappell so that you can straighten out tangles and know how mutch rope you have left. If you plan on being lowered make sure your belayer knows this and is tied into the other end of the rope.
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markc
Sep 11, 2007, 6:16 PM
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I don't make a habit of using stopper knots. I depend upon other means of avoiding accidents. They would have prevented one in this case, as well.
Based on the description of the crag, the climber should have had no issue feeding rope until both ends were obviously down, and getting independent confirmation. He should have been watching the ends of the rope, and realized he was coming up short before he got within 18 inches. Based on the description, he fed way too little rope through, and started to rappel without any idea where the two ends were. What exactly what he focused on?
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