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cracklover
Sep 11, 2007, 8:56 PM
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camhead wrote: cracklover wrote: And now that I think of it, camhead, what makes you think he didn't clean it up afterward? If the photo was of Dean working the route, it makes sense he might be ticking it with the intent of cleaning it after, no? GO you're right, Gabe. tell you what, I'll hike up to hong Kong Phooey next week with a pair of binocs and let you know whether he cleaned the ticks or not. care to make any predictions?
Sounds like you know the guy better than I do, so no, I won't make any predictions.
I don't know Steph Davis or Dean Potter personally, but my sense is that this is another thread more or less about how they are self-obsessed, self-indulgent climbers, who care only for their own selves and their friends, not for the climbing community as a whole. Perhaps. Certainly some of their writing and actions seem to suggest this. But some of the people who do know them say they're really nice folks who care about the climbing community a lot.
I guess where I'm going with this is that with so much shit stirred up around them I really don't think it's great to pile more shit onto them unless it's based on what you know from your own experience, rather than "could have been her", and "he probably didn't clean up the ticks". Knowmsayn?
GO
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dingus
Sep 11, 2007, 9:10 PM
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I thought he was complaining about tick marks.
None of the folks I hang with use them.
DMT
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thomasribiere
Sep 11, 2007, 9:26 PM
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Back on topic.
Last weekend, now that we talk about it, I remember that I ticked the rock over a hidden foothold, saying to myself "just clean it when you are lowered".
Unfortunately, I just forgot because I was a bit tired after the climb and thought about something esle.
I seldom tick and I'm almost sure I didn't even use this tick mark (!), so I guess I really shouldn't.
Just to add that this tickmark was half the size of an index fingerprint.
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angry
Sep 11, 2007, 9:30 PM
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For your crime, I'll let it slide this time.
But really, do we need tick marks on 6 pitch moderate to easy hard alpine routes? And I am talking about 2" ticks and quite possibly 100 of them in total.
It's cold up there, I'm not going back to count.
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thomasribiere
Sep 11, 2007, 9:44 PM
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The answer is no. It must be more a kind of pulsion or motivation than anything else really useful.
Our climbers eyes and cortex should be trained to memorize the shape of the rock for a few seconds, so that when we see a good foothold, we should be able to put the foot on it the move after. Especially when there's already some black ruuber marks on it (extremely frequent on limestone, at least).
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fracture
Sep 12, 2007, 1:05 AM
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angry wrote: Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off.
Tick marks are a beautiful thing. In the context of gymnastic climbing, brushing them off neither is nor should be common practice: you should leave them for the next climber to enjoy.
(But no comment from me on the alpine rehearsed free soloing nonsense...)
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dingus
Sep 12, 2007, 1:39 AM
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More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.
We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels.
Love,
DMT
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jt512
Sep 12, 2007, 6:05 AM
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dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.
In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.
Jay
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vegastradguy
Sep 12, 2007, 6:32 AM
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i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.
regardless, i agree- clean that shit up- unlike most other impacts we have, leaving chalk all over routes leaves a blatant negative impression on all those other outdoor user groups who have to look at it. (red rocks calico hills being a great example of this- no, folks, the rock is supposed to be red, not white...)
you gotta love potter, though. spends all that time spouting off about how spiritual the climbing experience is, and then leaves a bunch of white shit all over the rock. thanks dean.
its threads like this that make me proud to be one climber who does not contribute to the chalk problem.
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wanderlustmd
Sep 12, 2007, 11:54 AM
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Good points here. It really seems simple: clean up your mess. That's it.
In terms of whether or not ticking is a viable practice... we can go all day on that one. I personnally agree with Vegastradguy, but to each his own. The inportant things is to just clean up after yourself out of common courtesy. That's just a no-brainer.
-Matt
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carbonrx8
Sep 12, 2007, 11:56 AM
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Three points:
1) I want to let you guys that spout and spout about not using chalk outside know that all your self-important blather ("look at me! I'm using no chalk!") has won over an early convert. I mean really, what was I thinking. Most rock is pretty damn sticky and I am not climbing anything hard. Unless I am sweating and the rock is slick, I save my chalk for plastic.
2) Seems to me that this infatuation with DP and SD is like the climbers version of the US's redonkulus infatuation with the felonious feminine foibles of PH, BS, and LH. Seriously, several folks have chimed in their scorn, yet no one really knows what is going on. (despite the fair logic.) Besides, i got to see delicate arch this summer. All the hypocritical mumbo jumbo aside, I don't see the big deal. Sure it was "against the rules" but have you seen the 20 mile long black skid-mark double track through the desert there from all the hummers? How 'bout all the paved trails? Unsightly. Surely DP left less of a trace there.
3) I had a third point... but lost it amidst the rambling.
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granite_grrl
Sep 12, 2007, 12:39 PM
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For me, tick marks are like bad beta.
Your sequence will likely not be my sequnce, they usually screw me up more than they help.
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cracklover
Sep 12, 2007, 1:06 PM
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dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers. We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels. Love, DMT
Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink?
I'm just sayin'...
GO
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shanz
Sep 12, 2007, 1:43 PM
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maybe its just me but tick marks never seemed to work for me i never seem to climb the same route the same way every time (i attribute this to goldfish memory) not to mention moves that work for some dont always work for others. so using tick marks never seems to work for me. sure i use chalk but then again i tend to forget to chalk up or re chalk up when my hands are sweating (aka goldfish memory again) cause im too focused on getting up the climb. Maybe tick marks work for some(likely fewer rather than more) i think the debate is something used to let forth some rage on RC due that we arent out there climbing.
(This post was edited by shanz on Sep 12, 2007, 1:46 PM)
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angry
Sep 12, 2007, 2:11 PM
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Jay, you can take your "high-end" and stuff it.
You don't climb any harder than many users of this site who would never put a tic on a hold. So don't try to act special. I know you're a robot, it's all logic and numbers to you.
Where's your logic for a ticked up 10c?
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dingus
Sep 12, 2007, 2:26 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers. In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question. Jay I really don't care Jay, about tick marks, high end sport climbers and all the other things they do for convenience, like leaving their permadraws all over the place. Sport climbing is an urban sport - it brings the city out into the wild. But don't try to sell it as respect. I'll laugh in your face. DMT
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dingus
Sep 12, 2007, 2:28 PM
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cracklover wrote: dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers. We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels. Love, DMT Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink? I'm just sayin'... GO
My shit does not stink. I don't use tick marks, ever. When I leave chalk marks behind I don't pretend I'm doing so out of re cough cough cough resp hahahahahahahah
I'm sorry
r-e-s-p-e-c-t find out what it means to me!
DMT
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wonderwoman
Sep 12, 2007, 2:56 PM
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The most tick marks I've ever seen in one place was at Cheakamus Canyon in BC. And I mean EVERYTHING on EVERY CLIMB was tick marked. Any texture, feature or hold, had a big solid white mark on it. It seemed pretty silly and looked so ugly. I could almost imagine some insane school teacher running around with a stick of chalk giving a bad beta lesson.
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knieveltech
Sep 12, 2007, 3:04 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: For me, tick marks are like bad beta. Your sequence will likely not be my sequnce, they usually screw me up more than they help.
I know exactly what you mean. After a recent trip to the New where two routes and a number of boulder problems I got on had tick marks in ridiculous places (ticked miserable crimper 8 inches away from a nice sidepull, heavily chalked greasy sloper inches away from a bomber hidden hold, etc) I pretty much make it a point to disregard tics as beta.
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k.l.k
Sep 12, 2007, 3:15 PM
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers. In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question. Jay
That depends on your crag and the folks you climb with. Extensive tick-marks are essentially beta-- not a problem if everyone at your crag is incapable of even attempting an on-sight. But if you only do sport routes pre-equipped with tick marks, you're training yourself not to develop your onsight skills at harder levels. Some folks could care less. But others do. Not a problem if you're a 12a climber flailing on her 13a project. But it could be a problem for the 13a climber behind you.
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cracklover
Sep 12, 2007, 3:34 PM
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dingus wrote: cracklover wrote: dingus wrote: More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers. We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels. Love, DMT Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink? I'm just sayin'... GO My shit does not stink. I don't use tick marks, ever. When I leave chalk marks behind I don't pretend I'm doing so out of re cough cough cough resp hahahahahahahah I'm sorry r-e-s-p-e-c-t find out what it means to me! DMT
Well read between the lines here, man. If your issue is that tick marks look ugly to non-climbers, they're plenty less visible than the caked-on chalk on many climbs.
So when ye get on your soapbox and cast out the sport-weenies from the temple for being holier-than-thou and thinking their visual impact is a good thing, cast yourself out, too.
Honestly, I really can't get that worked up over tick marks. I don't use 'em, but I'm sure I (and many of you) leave far more visual impact with our chalked up hands.
Mind you, I use a chalk ball and pretty much only chalk at cruxy bits, or when it's very hot. But multiply that by enough climbers, and you get a lot of visual impact in some areas (like the desert).
I just can't help but think that my (and many of you out there) shit stinks way worse than whoever left those tick marks on the diamond.
To the OP: if your point is that you think some climbers are self-absorbed, self-obsessed, and think that their insight is like pearls of wisdom from the mouth of the buddha, and you just want to bring them back down to earth with the rest of us stinky-shit people, well then just come out and say so.
GO
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gatrailboy
Sep 12, 2007, 3:58 PM
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I really haven't seen any evidence(in this form) that these marks are left for more than a few days. If anyone here is free soloing 10c then I would be inclined to comment-otherwise I would find something else to talk about. Steph and Dean keep climbing and don't give into the negative. It probably dosen't have anything to do with those guys anyway.
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the_alpine
Sep 12, 2007, 4:03 PM
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A similar topic:
I'm not sure how many of you have seen Josh Lowell's new film King Lines yet. In there they travel to a remote region of Venezuela to boulder on amazing rock formations atop Tepui's. Sharma spews his normal one with the rock, loving nature, leave no trace...... BUT THEY CHALK THE SHIT OUT OF EVERY BOULDER THEY CLIMB! Maybe the rains wash it all away, but I tend to think that is not necessarily the case.
I'd be pissed if I walked 3 days through a jungle, topped out a huge formation and was greeted by gobs of chalk.
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dingus
Sep 12, 2007, 4:08 PM
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cracklover wrote: Well read between the lines here, man.
No. I'll leave the inference work to you. I prefer to state this directly - tick marks have NOTHING to do with respect.
They are a convenience and the respect thing is a lame excuse for sloppy behavior.
You won't read me categorizing the use of climbing chalk as respect hahahahahahahaha! That would be ridiculous!
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 12, 2007, 4:10 PM)
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wzrdgandalf
Sep 12, 2007, 4:24 PM
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angry wrote: Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off. Not a bad arguement except that no-one ever brushes them off. In my life, I've never seen a tick mark brushed off by someone who placed one. My latest example, Pervertical Sanctuary 10c, Longs Peak. It's got more ticks than the Black Canyon in the spring. Not a chalky hold mind you, a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb. This is on a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week. Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet) but rap the fucking thing and clean up your mess. You are a pro climber, you've got nothing but time. It's not like you don't have the extra half day to tidy up. If it's not you, sorry. Doesn't change my point, don't tick a route you can't or won't clean. 
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