Jay, more and more I am noticing a trend in your posts:

You become involved in an argument and a point for point quote war ensues...

Then, amazingly when someone tells you that you are a smart-ass know-it-all you protest, feigning ignorance on how this one incident has made people say something so unfair...

Dude, with a history like yours I find it difficult to understand how you think you can defend such a stance... you act exactly the way angry has described in just about every thread I have seen you post...

You may not think you are a smart-ass, but from your post-history and modus-operandi, everyone else does.

... and that's the way it always is with the speech and debate kid in high-school... he thinks that being right about everything will make him really popular when in actual fact it's the reason that everyone else gives him wedgies!

Cheers,

Adam

PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)

While you guys have been arguing about this, I went ahead and scrubbed off the tick marks on all of your projects, and then flashed them.


Clean up your ticks.

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).


Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)

Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....


You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)



-F

This last part, figuring out the puzzle that is a route, is in some sense what the whole point is. Short-cuts are for things that I don't like (like homework)...I climb because I find it fun, I don't want the easy way.

Unless I am mistaken, his kill file also erases things in quotes too. So, he still won't see it. I don't know though because I don't use it.

In any case, a quote by someone else in the killfile (me) still won't change things. It would be just as invisible.

thanks for summing up why i climb....much like why i ski!!!

Personally, I'm working on a trad route, and using tick marks to remind myself where gear goes best, since its thin and some placements will have to be blind (meaning I can't visually inspect them until several moves after placing them).
I've never used tick marks placed by others - I've only worked a few routes, but when I do, I have scrubbed any prior ticks and chalk off of holds so that I can figure out the best moves for are for my height and reach, and then leave ticks on the appropriate holds.

Oddly enough, I think it's exactly the other way around: do what you can to send the route in as few tries as possible, and spend the extra time on your homework.

Jay

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

Ooops, the count just went up to 3. Three that I know of who climb as hard as Jay on this thread, without ticks.

Carry on.

If it weren't for the fact that everyone enjoys a good Jay bashing, this thread would have died a long time ago. The people that do use/like ticks all agree they should be removed.

dude, the thing is, it does not matter what a climb is rated; if you are at your limit, it will feel the same. I remember back when I was getting into climbing, annd getting pumped to all hell on the heinous crimps of 10a's!

So, by that logic, it IS all right for any climber to tick, regardless of grade. A 5.14 climber could easily come along to Jay and say "what, you are ticking a 5.12? That's just for HARD climbs."

First, I must say, I effing love this thread. Thanks guys.

Here's the funny part. Jay loves slamming the climbers who don't climb as hard as him in this thread with a basic "when you get better you'll get it" type of statement.

There are 2 if not more posters on this thread who climb EVERY BIT as hard sport and harder trad than Jay who echo the statements of those lowly 5.10 climbers.

Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....


You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)



-F

well, at many crags it has obviously gotten to the point of 5.10 climbers seeing tickmarks on hard routes, and thinking "oh, I can do that on my project!" I have seen ticks on 5.9 handcracks in the desert.

Well, there always is a minority opinion. The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit, a practice that they will continue without the least concern over the enraged opinions of a few outliers posting on this website.

Jay

Now that's a pretty big claim for someone who is usually such a stickler for people having more than anecdotal evidence for making any kind of claim.