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rjtrials


Sep 27, 2007, 11:20 AM
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Please leave fixed gear alone  (North_America: United_States: Tennessee: Eastern: Foster_Falls)
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I have been on and off a project in the right bunker at Foster's since late spring. For awhile, I left a biner on the fourth bolt of the Bottled up/Abacus/Gas Chamber start for cleaning purposes. Instead of having to TR to the roof to clean the draws, you could just clip the biner and lower to grab the first three on the way down. After about two months, I had two biners taken, so i quicklinked a draw on the hanger.

Sometime over the summer, the draw was also taken (the quicklink had been wrench tight). Since the draw really wasnt long enough to be of much use to the climber, only to clean, I recently fixed a much longer sling made of rope onto the bolt. I only use that bolt/draw to clean from, but hoped that a longer fixed draw might be left, as a service to any and all climbers getting on the routes.

Once again, earlier this week, the draw was taken off route. I dont really mind that the gear has been taken, as I am using gear i dont really need, but it is frustrating that gear that has been left as a service, to climber or to clean, has been repeatedly 'bootied.'

What needs to happen to get people to leave 'fixed' gear alone? Does a chain with a loc-tited quicklink and zip-tied biner need to be put on? Maybe a note on the rock, in chalk, to leave the gear? If someone is just not psyched to have fixed gear on that bolt and has been repeatedly taking it off, please tell my why...

RJ


hsvclimber


Sep 27, 2007, 11:32 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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I think a lot of the newer generation of climbers don't understand a "cleaner biner", and assume a single fixed piece on a sport route is a bail biner and bootie it. Look at a lot of the routes at the Canyon that aren't completely fixed, ex "Lion" and "Boy" at Gray Wall, they cleaner biners on these routes are constantly being bootied. When you see someone doing it and you ask them why they are taking the cleaner biner they are like... huh... its a bail biner... its bootie... and you have to explain why it is there.


rjtrials


Sep 27, 2007, 12:31 PM
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Re: [hsvclimber] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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agreed.

i 'get' why single biners are taken. but quicklinked draws? and slings made with rope??


majid_sabet


Sep 27, 2007, 12:40 PM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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rjtrials wrote:
I have been on and off a project in the right bunker at Foster's since late spring. For awhile, I left a biner on the fourth bolt of the Bottled up/Abacus/Gas Chamber start for cleaning purposes. Instead of having to TR to the roof to clean the draws, you could just clip the biner and lower to grab the first three on the way down. After about two months, I had two biners taken, so i quicklinked a draw on the hanger.

Sometime over the summer, the draw was also taken (the quicklink had been wrench tight). Since the draw really wasnt long enough to be of much use to the climber, only to clean, I recently fixed a much longer sling made of rope onto the bolt. I only use that bolt/draw to clean from, but hoped that a longer fixed draw might be left, as a service to any and all climbers getting on the routes.

Once again, earlier this week, the draw was taken off route. I dont really mind that the gear has been taken, as I am using gear i dont really need, but it is frustrating that gear that has been left as a service, to climber or to clean, has been repeatedly 'bootied.'

What needs to happen to get people to leave 'fixed' gear alone? Does a chain with a loc-tited quicklink and zip-tied biner need to be put on? Maybe a note on the rock, in chalk, to leave the gear? If someone is just not psyched to have fixed gear on that bolt and has been repeatedly taking it off, please tell my why...

RJ

You are not getting the message
Do not leave your gear out there


powair


Sep 27, 2007, 12:48 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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Majid, you're a dumbass.


ja1484


Sep 27, 2007, 12:50 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

You are not getting the message
Do not leave your gear out there


It's a red letter day. I agree with Majid for once.

Yeah, I know about convention and the usual ethic/policy - leave fixed project draws alone. It's stupid. Clean your sh!t up when you go home, and re-hang it next time out. The crag isn't your bedroom.

That said, fixed draws (this means chain or quicklinked) should be considered crag property, a la bolts, anchors, etc. But don't be surprised if you leave your personal draws on a project and they disappear or bail biners get swiped. There are a lot of people out there that don't know any better/don't give a rat's ass.


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Sep 27, 2007, 12:52 PM)


whiteflash


Sep 27, 2007, 1:27 PM
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Re: [ja1484] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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I climb at both area's frequently, and it is a true pain to clean many of those routes without the cleaner beaner on a middle bolt. It is also a pain/expense to put one up each time you want to work a route. If you see someone doing this please explain to them the concept of lowering through the beaner and I bet they will leave them alone.


hsvclimber


Sep 27, 2007, 2:00 PM
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Re: [ja1484] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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"yeah, I know about convention and the usual ethic/policy - leave fixed project draws alone. It's stupid. Clean your sh!t up when you go home, and re-hang it next time out. The crag isn't your bedroom.

That said, fixed draws (this means chain or quicklinked) should be considered crag property, a la bolts, anchors, etc. But don't be surprised if you leave your personal draws on a project and they disappear or bail biners get swiped. There are a lot of people out there that don't know any better/don't give a rat's ass."

We aren't talking about leaving project draws or fixing complete routes!

Have you ever climbed at either of the two areas mentioned?

It is normal at these areas with long low roofs or traverses (as the case with the routes the OP was referring to), to have a single fixed biner halfway down the route, either mid traverse or just below the roof to aid in cleaning the draws off the route. It is not clipped during the RP.

At both of these areas the steeper routes (ex Concave and Left Bunker) routes are completely fixed. People know to leave these biners alone. They however don't know the area technique to clean a route using the fixed cleaner biner...

After reading your post I assume you wouldn't know how to use the cleaner biner either and bootie it as a bail biner...


(This post was edited by hsvclimber on Sep 27, 2007, 2:01 PM)


the_alpine


Sep 27, 2007, 2:12 PM
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Re: [hsvclimber] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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Cleaner 'biner!? Weaksauce!


ja1484


Sep 27, 2007, 4:05 PM
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Re: [hsvclimber] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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hsvclimber wrote:
After reading your post I assume you wouldn't know how to use the cleaner biner either and bootie it as a bail biner...


Assuming might get you in trouble. I figured that post would ruffle some feathers, which is good. More people need their feathers ruffled these days.

One should come to the crag prepared with the knowledge and gear needed to retrieve their equipment sans anything fixed. If not, they deserve the trouble they have doing so.

I don't need no cleaner 'biner and I don't want no cleaner 'biner and I don't worry about having "donated" fixed gear disappear because I don't leave anything fixed unless I have no other choice.

If you leave something fixed on a route, accept the fact you're parting ways with it and someone may make off with it. Once again: the crag is not your bedroom, it's more likely public access property of some kind, which means anything goes.

I find it adorable when people complain about fixed gear being "adjusted". Fixed 'biner gone? Use one of your own for your session, then take it home with you. Bolt hanger gone? You have the following options:

- Replace it
- Rivet-style
- Clean gear, if you have the option
- Sack up and highball the start

Bolt gone? Pick your adventure. Rap station looking sketchy? Hope you brought what you need to make your own.

Etc.

Any movement away from self-reliance within the activity of climbing is a foolhardy attitude adjustment. Adjust back.


vegastradguy


Sep 27, 2007, 4:40 PM
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Re: [ja1484] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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ja1484 wrote:
hsvclimber wrote:
After reading your post I assume you wouldn't know how to use the cleaner biner either and bootie it as a bail biner...


Assuming might get you in trouble. I figured that post would ruffle some feathers, which is good. More people need their feathers ruffled these days.

One should come to the crag prepared with the knowledge and gear needed to retrieve their equipment sans anything fixed. If not, they deserve the trouble they have doing so.

I don't need no cleaner 'biner and I don't want no cleaner 'biner and I don't worry about having "donated" fixed gear disappear because I don't leave anything fixed unless I have no other choice.

If you leave something fixed on a route, accept the fact you're parting ways with it and someone may make off with it. Once again: the crag is not your bedroom, it's more likely public access property of some kind, which means anything goes.

I find it adorable when people complain about fixed gear being "adjusted". Fixed 'biner gone? Use one of your own for your session, then take it home with you. Bolt hanger gone? You have the following options:

- Replace it
- Rivet-style
- Clean gear, if you have the option
- Sack up and highball the start

Bolt gone? Pick your adventure. Rap station looking sketchy? Hope you brought what you need to make your own.

Etc.

Any movement away from self-reliance within the activity of climbing is a foolhardy attitude adjustment. Adjust back.

a worthy post.

please, a cleaner biner? are you kidding me?


rjtrials


Sep 27, 2007, 9:09 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
a worthy post.

please, a cleaner biner? are you kidding me?

Vegas, i know you are a fairly accomplished climber. This leads me to think you are not the Douche McGoosh your post suggests. Since this is a discussion about a particular route at a particular area, may i enlighten on the situation??

There are 4, maybe 5 routes that share a common start. Extremely fun 5.9 climbing up a 3 bolt face to gain a stance beneath a roof. From this stance, you can then clip bolt 4.
From this stance, if you climb left-ish, the route is Bottled up Warroir, 12c. it has NO fixed gear.
If you climb strait up, after clipping bolt 4, you will then clip 2 fixed draws, hang three more and will have sent Abacus, 13a.
Climbing to the right, you need to skip bolt 4, and clip fixed gear on Gas Chamber 13a.
If you keep climbing right, and exit the cave, you get 13d credit and the route is Turbo Dog. All of the fixed gear on this, including the crux draw on Gas Chamber have been replace by me. If u can link this into Kill or be Killed, you get the FA. So Vegas, if you got the FA bug, come on down to Chossters, I'll hook you up with the beta and a belay.

If you read that, and understand the breakdown, here is my reply on the local BBS...

In reply to:
The cleaning biner/draw is best situated at the fourth bolt. If u are going to be cleaning BUW, clipping that piece is going to keep you from swinging very far while retrieving the first three draws.
If u are cleaning Abacus, you should have the first 4 bolts clipped, then the draw in the roof, the chain, and 3 more draws to the anchors. Clean the top 3, lower to the ground. Relead to bolt 4, clip the cleaning draw/biner, lower and clean your 4 draws.
If u are climbing Gas Chamber/Turbo/Turbo-Kill you will clip 3 draws, skip 4 and keep climbing on perma draws. To clean, relead and clip the fixed gear on bolt 4, lower and clean.


The gear wasnt left because i couldnt clean my own shit or it was too much of a hassle. It was left as a convenience to all those climbing the routes. Easy/quickness of cleaning is also a plus on the busy weekends as well as avoiding TR-ing through the perma-draws or anchors.

RJ


vegastradguy


Sep 27, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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rjtrials wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
a worthy post.

please, a cleaner biner? are you kidding me?

Vegas, i know you are a fairly accomplished climber. This leads me to think you are not the Douche McGoosh your post suggests. Since this is a discussion about a particular route at a particular area, may i enlighten on the situation??

There are 4, maybe 5 routes that share a common start. Extremely fun 5.9 climbing up a 3 bolt face to gain a stance beneath a roof. From this stance, you can then clip bolt 4.
From this stance, if you climb left-ish, the route is Bottled up Warroir, 12c. it has NO fixed gear.
If you climb strait up, after clipping bolt 4, you will then clip 2 fixed draws, hang three more and will have sent Abacus, 13a.
Climbing to the right, you need to skip bolt 4, and clip fixed gear on Gas Chamber 13a.
If you keep climbing right, and exit the cave, you get 13d credit and the route is Turbo Dog. All of the fixed gear on this, including the crux draw on Gas Chamber have been replace by me. If u can link this into Kill or be Killed, you get the FA. So Vegas, if you got the FA bug, come on down to Chossters, I'll hook you up with the beta and a belay.


so, what you're saying is, 5.12 leaders cant (or shouldnt have to) downclimb 5.9 on top rope to clean 3 draws because its not convenient?


hsvclimber


Sep 28, 2007, 5:26 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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If you were down climbing to clean the first 3 draws while on the TR for Gas Chamber and happened to fall, due to the traverse you would deck...

Not saying fixed gear should be done at every crag, but at this crag and several others around the region, "since this is a regional discussion" it is a common practice...

When we go to other regions say North Carolina we follow the bold trad standards that NC is known for and don't leave fixed gear.

Another ex of this in our region would be "Spellbound" at the canyon, try to clean your first 3 draws without the fixed biner on the 2nd bolt...


(This post was edited by hsvclimber on Sep 28, 2007, 5:54 AM)


notapplicable


Sep 28, 2007, 5:45 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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It does seem a bit odd to me that someone would take one item of fixed gear on a route that has multiple pieces. It does however seem clear that someone doesnt agree with it being there.

Has it occured to you that if it keeps getting taken, it may not be as necessary as you think? Who ever is taking it obviously doesnt need it to clean the route. Not trying to start a fight, just a thought I had while reading the thread.


reg


Sep 28, 2007, 6:07 AM
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Re: [ja1484] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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ja1484 wrote:

I don't need no cleaner 'biner and I don't want no cleaner 'biner ..........................

and

Bolt gone? Pick your adventure. Rap station looking sketchy? Hope you brought what you need to make your own.

great stuff!

ja1484 wrote:
Any movement away from self-reliance within the activity of climbing is a foolhardy attitude adjustment. Adjust back.

now there's gospel! thanks for that wisdom ja.


Partner xtrmecat


Sep 28, 2007, 7:39 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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  Sorry that you aren't getting the response you wanted. I also agree you needn't litter up everyone's rock with your leftovers. Ground up is not a bad style, clean bold and true. Don't want to tell you your style sucks, but JA1484, Majid, vegastradguy,Reg may be right. If you climb bottom to top and can take any and all the obstacles thrown in your path and succeed then you have accomplished a worthy goal. If I cannot do a climb,and have to bail, then I will do what it takes to clean up my unsightly mess(gear) and go climb something else, even if it is inconvenient and time consuming(hard) and takes extra effort.
Bob


valeberga


Sep 28, 2007, 7:54 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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Did you ever think that you could be messing up someone else's right to climb a clean route by leaving your stuff on it?

Your attitude is very selfish. You shouldn't make people clean up after you and deal with your crap on a route--and then bitch about it. That constitutes two insults to other climbers. Even if it's a bail 'biner. It sounds like you wasted the time of someone who didn't need to bail.


(This post was edited by valeberga on Sep 28, 2007, 7:57 AM)


curator


Sep 29, 2007, 4:10 PM
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it continues to be the same argument. What' so funny about it is that the people that bitch about "leaving your shit at the crag" and "being too lazy to take your stuff home at the end of the day" are the 5.8, overweight, goobers. These routes in question are 12c and up. Is there anyone out there that actually climbs 12c that objects to leaving cleaner biners? Anyone? Isn't it funny how the committed 5.12 climbers are the lazy ones and the 5.8 goobs that have been climbing for three weeks are the ethics police? When bitching about these subjects consider if it actually affects you or not. Most of you can't get to the cleaner biner anyway. Another funny thing about this particular forum is the idea that fixed chains are property of the crag and shouldn't be stolen while fixed draws are someone's personal property and should be removed and considered trash. Guess what.....There is no governing body that regulates the hardware including bolts, chains, fixed webbing etc. Everything at the cliff, including the two bolt anchor at the top of your pristine 5.7 handcrack that you boldly led with your rack of shiny hexes, was placed by a climber that paid for that hardware. I'm going to start my own website, with my own forums, called Elitistprick.com. And on that website when people write in saying their shit got stolen, everyone will say, "aw, man that sucks, I'll see if I have any old biners laying around the house to fix that up for everyone next time I climb that route". If you don't like fixed gear don't go to sport crags. I don't like dangerous noobs that kick off rocks and drop their partners with atc's that they don't know how to use, so i don't go to Seneca. It's that simple.
And RJ, find me one person that can climb any of the routes in question, 12c and up, that feels like their right to climb a clean route was messed up by fixed draws.
In the eloquent words of the poet philosopher CinnamonJohnson: "I wonder when someone is actually going to redpoint realization."
Those guys are too lazy to take their shit home at the end of the day. Those petzl logo draws hanging on that beautiful wall are an eyesore. That thing needs to be led ground up, NC style, none of this lazy man pink-point crap. Maybe we need to get a real hardcore traditionalist in there to straighten things out. How bout Bacher, that guy is the real deal. True enough but he bolted dozens if not hundreds of sport climbs throughout the west and put quick clip anchors at the top so he could lazily lower to the ground.(if he had a rope with him) Peter Croft, surely he would take his stuff home at the end of the day. Last winter he had a fixed toprope on his project at Owens for months. Plus a cam anchor at ground level that I could have easily walked away with. Is it still booty that is up for grabs if it belongs to a guy that soloed astroman? i'm not trash talking my heroes.....I'm just trying to reveal what real climbing is like. Sometimes it involves fixed gear and faith that the common man won't steal your things. I've written similar posts every time this subject comes up. And I will continue to do so until the ethics police stop stealing my stuff.


Purist


Sep 29, 2007, 4:29 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
You are not getting the message.
Do not leave your gear out there

And learn Texas Rope Trick already.

You and no one else will ever again have a problem with your misbehaviour.


vegastradguy


Sep 29, 2007, 4:49 PM
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Re: [curator] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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In reply to:
These routes in question are 12c and up. Is there anyone out there that actually climbs 12c that objects to leaving cleaner biners?

what does anyones climbing ability have to do with it? its an eyesore from the ground. what we're saying is- pick up after yourself no matter who you are. laziness is not an excuse.

In reply to:
Isn't it funny how the committed 5.12 climbers are the lazy ones and the 5.8 goobs that have been climbing for three weeks are the ethics police?

maybe those 5.12 climbers should take a lesson from the 5.8 climbers. LNT actually does apply to all levels of climbing.


In reply to:
When bitching about these subjects consider if it actually affects you or not. Most of you can't get to the cleaner biner anyway.

it affects everyone. whether or not we can get to the carabiner is moot. eyesores are eyesores and they make climbers look bad to the rest of the outdoor community. this lazy attitude will eventually get a cliff closed because some wanker was too lazy to clean up after himself.


In reply to:
Another funny thing about this particular forum is the idea that fixed chains are property of the crag and shouldn't be stolen while fixed draws are someone's personal property and should be removed and considered trash.


i dont remember ever seeing this attitude on the forum. while i consider it lazy at best, if there are draws on a project, i do leave them there....


In reply to:
In the eloquent words of the poet philosopher CinnamonJohnson: "I wonder when someone is actually going to redpoint realization."

me too.

In reply to:
Peter Croft, surely he would take his stuff home at the end of the day. Last winter he had a fixed toprope on his project at Owens for months. Plus a cam anchor at ground level that I could have easily walked away with. Is it still booty that is up for grabs if it belongs to a guy that soloed astroman?

if Croft actually did that, he just lost some serious respect from me- although i have trouble believing that.

In reply to:
I'm just trying to reveal what real climbing is like. Sometimes it involves fixed gear and faith that the common man won't steal your things.

sometimes it does. in my mind, fixed gear can be left overnight, two days at most. after that, go get your shit.

In reply to:
I've written similar posts every time this subject comes up. And I will continue to do so until the ethics police stop stealing my stuff.

start cleaning up after yourself, and then the ethics police wont have to steal your shit.


(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Sep 29, 2007, 4:49 PM)


rjtrials


Sep 29, 2007, 5:37 PM
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rjtrials wrote:
Vegas, i know you are a fairly accomplished climber. This leads me to think you are not the Douche McGoosh your post suggests.
RJ

I take it back. You are a Douche. Or a Turd Sandwich.


knieveltech


Sep 29, 2007, 5:42 PM
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I don't mean to hijack the thread (I'm sure everyone is enjoying another round of "don't leave your shit at the crag") but I'm curious. How does having a biner on the 4th bolt assist with cleaning? I'm trying to visualize what's going on here but I'm missing something. Thanks.


valeberga


Sep 29, 2007, 5:50 PM
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Re: [curator] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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curator wrote:
Guess what.....There is no governing body that regulates the hardware including bolts, chains, fixed webbing etc.
Couldn't have put it better myself! Guess what... you can leave it, they can take it. Of course you still seem to ignore the possibility that it was not a 'thief' that removed the gear, but another climber whose time was wasted getting someone else's crap off the climb they wanted to do. How convenient that thieves or ethinazis are always to blame. How one-sided of a perspective...

Thanks also for bringing up easier grades. It is highly obvious that if random stuff gets left on 5.lessbadassthanyouare, then it is fair game for removal. Leaver-biner on a 5.10? Shouldn't be there. It's disrespectful (or pathetic, to a hardcore climber like you), and it gets in the way of the next climber. Oh and guess what... maybe 5.12c is the new 5.10. Better get crankin' Tongue


(This post was edited by valeberga on Sep 29, 2007, 5:56 PM)


rjtrials


Sep 29, 2007, 7:04 PM
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Posts: 342

Re: [valeberga] Please leave fixed gear alone [In reply to]
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valeberga wrote:
Guess what... you can leave it, they can take it. Of course you still seem to ignore the possibility that it was not a 'thief' that removed the gear, but another climber whose time was wasted getting someone else's crap off the climb they wanted to do. How convenient that thieves or ethinazis are always to blame. How one-sided of a perspective...

It's interesting that most climbers are brought into the sport with the notion of 'booty.' If the gear isnt yours, dont take it. Simple logic, no?

Also, if you are at a sport-ish crag, there is absolutely NO REASON to ever have to leave bail gear. Know how to use a stick clip? Its pretty damn easy to aid up even the toughest of climbs. Don't have a stick clip? Grab a stout 6' branch from the forest floor, send it up to the climber, and Voila!

You shouldn't automatically assume gear left on a hanger is 'bail' and thus open to be bootied.

RJ

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