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artm
Sep 27, 2007, 4:44 PM
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j_ung wrote: artm wrote: caughtinside wrote: crackers wrote: Troll of the Year Award! I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going... congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here!  heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it. BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same. Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right? I agree, climbing shoes are all the same. It's the Climber not the shoe. Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts.
It's the climber not the shoe.
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cchildre
Sep 27, 2007, 4:44 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: texas, your missing the point.. Putting asside matching the right belay divise to the proper rope diameter. What is more important to you given the same rope diamater and length. Brand name or price?
Price would be my first guide. Brand name only counts toward getting a product similar to my previous experience. Comparing an Edelweiss and a Beal: one is stiff, hard to feed, and mega durable, while the other is soft, supple, feed smoothly, but gets retired sooner than most. First rope was a Bluewater, that lasted through two years of hangdogging and whippers. Beal, that cost 50%more, lasted 6 months and was not even suitable for top roping. As for fall ratings, impact force, are mostly ignored.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2007, 4:46 PM
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cchildre wrote: caughtinside wrote: Dude yer a moron! You just described a couple unfortunate incidents that are clearly n00b error in choosing the wrong tool (in terms of diameter or belay device) for the job! Who is retarded enough to drag an 11mil rope up a long route? Who is the jackass who can't belay with a skinny rope and puts their partner in danger? Both situations you describe can't be blamed on the rope. Refresh my memory, FOOL! Didn't you start this with the asserrtion that all ropes are the same? Sitiuations cited, were done so, as to point out how ropes are not all the same. While not the fault of the rope, a different rope could have lessened if not avoided the situations. I don't know why I even bothered to write this reply. It is probalby outside of your range of understanding. Besides, mom told me that you just can't argue with STUPID!
It's fairly obvious to me that you didn't read the inital post. You probably just read the title, allowed yourself to be trolled, and told a couple stories about your own jackassitude. That's terrific.
Next time, you might try reading the actual post, so you could see my opinion on the importance of diameter, before spouting purely diameter related arguments.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2007, 4:50 PM
Post #79 of 149
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vegastradguy wrote: imho, though, some ropes are definitely better than others. i've owned several brands, several models of those brands, and i definitely have a favorite- so much so that future rope purchases will be dictated by that favorite.
See, this is interesting. I have had the same experience. Some ropes are 'better' (which I chalk up to personal preference as well.) However, I have reached the OPPOSITE conclusion as VTG. Despite the fact that they are 'better,' they are not 'better enough' to warrant me paying extra money for them.
I'm like tradmanclimbs, $20 is about my variance window for whether a more expensive rope is worth it.
A little something else about my climbing. I don't baby my ropes. If I want to TR a climb that will likely chew up my rope, that won't stop me from TRing it. Naturally I'll try to rig the anchor to mitigate damage as much as possible, but I won't not climb something just to preserve my rope.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 27, 2007, 4:52 PM
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yea, My beal s all fuzzed out exactly a year in service, nice hand though. edelweise is still truck if you don't mind the stiffness.
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robdotcalm
Sep 27, 2007, 4:53 PM
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From the Italian Test Report on Wet Ropes:
«The dynamic resistance of the ropes (i.e. the number of falls held on the Dodero) decreases enormously - down to 30 % of the initial value - when they are soaked with water, be they new or used, normal or waterproofed.»
Note that in the Italian study new ropes were used.
From Sterling Ropes (http://www.sterlingrope.com):
«Please note that DryCore™ does not guarantee you rope will stay
dry, but that when the rope is wet the fibers will maintain more of their strength and stretch.»
Thanks for the references. Clearly wet ropes lose strength. Clearly, no one has answered the question: After a rope has been used for, say, 10 days, are there any differences between a dry-treated rope and an untreated rope? The statement from Sterling may be true qualitatively, but without quantitative data it is of no value, e.g., if the dry-treated ropes retain 1% more strength than an untreated rope that would be insignificant.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for the answers.
I got into this about 15 years ago, when I was climbing with 2 half-ropes, identical except for the dry treatment on one. I got caught in a rain storm, and I realized that both ropes seemed just as wet. So that’s when I did the bathtub experiment of weighing the ropes on a kitchen scale before and after having them in the tub for 15 minutes. Interestingly their weight gain, 57%, is about the same as the 60% gain reported in the Italian study. I did publish a letter on this in “Climbing” and the response from rope manufacturers was muted. One rep from a rope company told me, off the record, that my conclusions were valid—after a week of use they behave the same.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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j_ung
Sep 27, 2007, 5:00 PM
Post #82 of 149
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artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: caughtinside wrote: crackers wrote: Troll of the Year Award! I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going... congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it. BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same. Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right? I agree, climbing shoes are all the same. It's the Climber not the shoe. Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts. I've lead an 11b sport route (completely wired) in approach shoes. It's the climber not the shoe.
Can you make the same claim onsighting? I also wear approach shoes on well-wired warm ups, but it's the well-wired part that negates at least some of the claim, IMO.
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NSFW
Sep 27, 2007, 5:01 PM
Post #83 of 149
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Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same?
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 27, 2007, 5:12 PM
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My last 3 sets of alpine/ice all in the last 7 years.
Sterling 8.8 marathon, Mamute 9mm, PMI 8.6
All super dry or dry core. All reasonably dry for the first season of pure ice. All completly lost any semblance of dry after a summer of rock. As far as rock cragging goes dry treatment is waste of money. Ironicly the cheapest rope on the market these days is the Edelweis 10.3 60m dry $119.95 It is also the most durrable ropes I have used in awhile. Just a wee bit stiff. Available @ outdoor gear exchage Burlington VT or gear express.com
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artm
Sep 27, 2007, 5:12 PM
Post #85 of 149
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j_ung wrote: artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: caughtinside wrote: crackers wrote: Troll of the Year Award! I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going... congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it. BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same. Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right? I agree, climbing shoes are all the same. It's the Climber not the shoe. Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts. I've lead an 11b sport route (completely wired) in approach shoes. It's the climber not the shoe. Can you make the same claim onsighting? I also wear approach shoes on well-wired warm ups, but it's the well-wired part that negates at least some of the claim, IMO.
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microbarn
Sep 27, 2007, 5:17 PM
Post #86 of 149
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NSFW wrote: Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same?
no, this one is the coolest:
In reply to: i saw a chalk bag at a gym once of a stuffed bunny's head he took a old chalk bag, cut the lining out and sewed it into the bunny's head he cut a little hole in part of the ear to hold the brush but the funniest (perhaps most disturbing) was he took red dye and dyed the fur around the neck where he cut the head from the rest of the toy.
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Carnage
Sep 27, 2007, 6:20 PM
Post #87 of 149
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microbarn wrote: NSFW wrote: Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same? no, this one is the coolest: In reply to: i saw a chalk bag at a gym once of a stuffed bunny's head he took a old chalk bag, cut the lining out and sewed it into the bunny's head he cut a little hole in part of the ear to hold the brush but the funniest (perhaps most disturbing) was he took red dye and dyed the fur around the neck where he cut the head from the rest of the toy.
he wins
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 27, 2007, 6:53 PM
Post #88 of 149
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caughtinside wrote: So, how am I or anyone else for that matter, supposed to make an INFORMED decision when buying a rope? You don't get to test them out. They all feel more or less the same to me when their in the factory coil. So, like most people, I choose based on price, diameter and weight. Why would I pay $50 more for a rope that is comparable on those characteristics?
Start by educationg yourself, which you clearly haven't done. Learn the difference between a single and double pic sheath. Learn why twist rate of sheath yarns affects durability and appearance. Learn how sheath tension affects handling and durability. Learn why a Z-only sheath is cheaper but it's a bad tradeoff. Learn about the correlation with fall factor and durability. Learn why dry treatings improve durability in desert climbing. That's just for starters. And try using different ropes in different regions and weather conditions, since you admit you haven't.
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gunkiemike
Sep 27, 2007, 8:45 PM
Post #89 of 149
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NSFW wrote: Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same?
We'll get to that after we flog the "All CHALK is the same" horse.
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hotgemini
Sep 27, 2007, 10:19 PM
Post #90 of 149
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vegastradguy wrote: this is why jay is my rope reviewer....a job he wont lose anytime soon!
I'd like to apply for that job.
Currently I've got 20 ropes in the 10-10.5mm size range. Representing 9 models from 7 different manufacturers. That figure goes up to 24 ropes of 10 different models if you include the retired ropes and will go up to 26 ropes of 11 different models once the ropes I've got on pre-order arrive.
My thoughts on this thread are as follows;
Its largely a troll desperate for attention. What the OP is actually trying to say is that in his personal opinion cost is the most important factor in his rope selection. He repeatedly acknowledges the existance of other differences between ropes but then dismisses them as irrelevant.
I do agree with the sentiment that its very hard for the climber 'on-the-street' to form any sort of informed opinion about the relative merits of different ropes.
My experience in my "buy (at least) two of every 10.5mm-ish rope on the market and treat them all equally" experiment tells me that there are significant differences between ropes, enough that at I'd probably spend up to 35% more on my personal rope, but only because I know what I know from hands on experience.
The experiment continues, but I'm now to the point of having to buy ropes from the states and ship them to Australia to get different models.
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robdotcalm
Sep 27, 2007, 10:50 PM
Post #91 of 149
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NSFW wrote: Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same?
A couple of years ago, I took my 5-year old granddaughter to the climbing gym. She said, "Grandpa, look at that woman's chalk bag." I said, "Duh." Then she said, "See yours is just black, but she's got pretty flowers sewn on hers."
If your a woman, all chalk bags aren't the same.
rob.calm
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slablizard
Sep 27, 2007, 11:54 PM
Post #92 of 149
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No prob for the teasing man...it's all good.
I had 3 ropes in the past 5 years or so, that's muy experience with them...
Again the Mammut is fine, it's just freaking stiff...while I am still using the Sterling that is twice as old...
truth is I didn't washed the mammut at all, I'll try that, but I doubt it will make a huge difference.
caughtinside wrote: Yeah, I did tease slabby about that mammut. But again, my point. What does his story tell us? That he got one bad mammut? That he got a mammut HE didn't like? Just up thread, potreroed says he's been climbing 40 years, and his FAVORITE ropes are mammut! (and I will go a little further and say that he likely belays with a grigri in the potrero) |
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MedicJones
Oct 1, 2007, 2:50 AM
Post #93 of 149
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kimmyt wrote: It always seems like the noodly ropes get tangled more easily. FWIW I bought my rope cause it was in a box with a sale sign on it. I think no one bought them cause they were purple and pink. Guys are dumb.
I am a (Straight married) guy and my Maxim 10.5 is purple and pink, so following your logic I should not be dumb. I am not sure that I agree with you...
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 3:54 AM
Post #94 of 149
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stefanohatari wrote: I think the body of your post contradicts your subject line.
The body of his posts contradict his subject line; his posts contradict each other, and his individual posts contain internal contradictions. Other that, this argument is ironclad.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 4:03 AM
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slablizard wrote: Edelrid wire, 9.8 mm X 70 mt
They really have a rope called the "Wire?" What's next, the "Cable?"
Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 4:11 AM
Post #96 of 149
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jay, i totaly agree that all ropes are different but my point is how much money is the difference worth to you provideing the fact that all ropes are safe enough for standard cragging aplications be it sport or trad. A quick browse through the rope section @ gearexpress.com shows the options for 60m single ropes. Beal 10.2 dry $177.50 OS* (*out of stock) Blue water 10.5 Standard $174.00 Edelweis 10.3 dry $119.95 Maxim 10.5dry $154.95 *os Sterling 9.8 & 10.1 standard $149.95 According to my criteria the beal and bluewater are eliminated outright due to high price...
According to my criteria, all the listed ropes except the Beal are eliminated due to having higher impact forces than the Beal, and the Beal is eliminated because it's not on sale. Therefore, I shop around and get the Beal for a lower price than any of the ropes you've listed.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 4:24 AM
Post #97 of 149
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NSFW wrote: Can we at least agree that all chalk bags are the same?
Hell no! It's surprising how many chalk bags are fatally flawed. They have a closure that a draw string runs through that folds into the bag when it's open, and prevents the chalk from getting on your hands. Other chalk bags don't have sufficiently stiffened openings, and so they collapse, making it difficult to chalk up. Other's don't close up well and you end up getting chalk all over everything.
The best chalk bags were made by Monolith. They had a spring closure instead of a draw string. When Monolith went out of business I bought two of their chalk bags. I've lost one and am down to the last chalk bag with a spring closure on the planet. I should have bought a dozen when I had the chance.
Jay
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slablizard
Oct 1, 2007, 11:27 PM
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I am not making it up...:)
jt512 wrote: slablizard wrote: Edelrid wire, 9.8 mm X 70 mt They really have a rope called the "Wire?" What's next, the "Cable?" Jay
(This post was edited by slablizard on Oct 1, 2007, 11:29 PM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 1, 2007, 11:44 PM
Post #99 of 149
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artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: caughtinside wrote: crackers wrote: Troll of the Year Award! I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going... congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it. BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same. Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right? I agree, climbing shoes are all the same. It's the Climber not the shoe. Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts. I've lead an 11b sport route (completely wired) in approach shoes. It's the climber not the shoe. Can you make the same claim onsighting? I also wear approach shoes on well-wired warm ups, but it's the well-wired part that negates at least some of the claim, IMO. I've onsighted 5.10 trad in approach shoes.
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artm
Oct 1, 2007, 11:56 PM
Post #100 of 149
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chossmonkey wrote: artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: caughtinside wrote: crackers wrote: Troll of the Year Award! I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going... congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it. BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same. Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right? I agree, climbing shoes are all the same. It's the Climber not the shoe. Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts. I've lead an 11b sport route (completely wired) in approach shoes. It's the climber not the shoe. Can you make the same claim onsighting? I also wear approach shoes on well-wired warm ups, but it's the well-wired part that negates at least some of the claim, IMO. I've onsighted 5.10 trad in approach shoes. Art you are absolutely right. I climb in my approach shoes all the time. Sometimes I find they even climb better than my real climbing shoes. They are super comfy on long routes too. It does really piss people off though when you burn them off on a route in your approach shoes that they can't do in their climbing shoes.
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