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carabiner96
Oct 12, 2007, 9:15 PM
Post #26 of 81
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omalavet wrote: everything you use in usa is made in china... you gringo guys think... that only the usa stuf works... usa is no the only country in the world dude.... get out there
ja dood, git out theer!
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bent_gate
Oct 12, 2007, 9:42 PM
Post #27 of 81
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cameltoe wrote: ... and I for one would like to point out tha americans don't speak english properly either, they speak american... In fact when I speak english I often find americans also have difficulties understanding it.. (I feel this is about the same level as commeting on BD cams being made in china) CT out (p.s. for those who didn't work it out already I am actually English)
Righto Govern'ah!
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jakedatc
Oct 12, 2007, 9:53 PM
Post #28 of 81
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dylan1 wrote: I just bought a new set of Black Diamond cams from r.e.i. 20% off sale. They are "Made in China" I would of never thought that the cams were not made in Salt Lake City. I am going to return them. China can't seem to make a toy right...trust a cam?
Notice you didn't bitch about the nice % off you got there.. i assume then that you were waiting for them to go on sale so you could buy them cheaper.. guess what.. if all the labor was done in the US then they would probably cost even more than they do now..
AND you're comparing ISO whatever Cams to little kids toys that got pained with lead paint? WTF??
STFU and go throw out everything else in your house made in China.. That includes your cell phone and your computer
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shockabuku
Oct 12, 2007, 11:01 PM
Post #29 of 81
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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reverse_dyno wrote: I think we should all email black diamond to complain. I just did. Lets think, lets send personal safety gear manufacturing to a country where the people are not highly education and have a hard time understanding English. Then lets send them the designs for the life saving equipment so that they can try and make it. Do not the many recent recalls due to lead paint make it clear that the company over cite in China is lacking? DB US: bdmo@bdel.com DB International: international@bdel.com DB china: http://www.bdel.com/china/index.php
Oh, the irony. Bold highlighting mine.
omalavet wrote: everything you use in usa is made in china... you gringo guys think... that only the usa stuf works... usa is no the only country in the world dude.... get out there
Been out there; that's why I generally like to stay at home.
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dylan1
Oct 12, 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #30 of 81
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Registered: Nov 28, 2006
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Notice on then R.E.I. website it is stated "made in u.s.a." NOT china...by the way I returned the cams....also as a supervisor of a machine and maint. shop I manage a building full of people who lost jobs in the past due to manufacturng leaving the country.
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ja1484
Oct 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
Post #31 of 81
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dylan1 wrote: If the factory is maxed out, why not expand or build another facility in SLC to increase production or has manufacturing been moved to increase profits. If it a lot cheaper to make them overseas, lower the price. That is a big problem in America, corporations send jobs to s.e. asia forcing people to work jobs without benefits or decent pay by eliminating blue collar skilled jobs unless you can afford to go to a university
This type of ignorant viewpoint is always so amusing.
I love how people blame American companies for "forcing" people in these countries to work jobs under harsh/horrible conditions, as if they invade and do it at gunpoint. Allow me to improv a quick lesson in human rights and economics:
American companies move labor jobs to other countries for three main reasons: 1) Labor costs are cheaper, 2) The exchange rate is favorable, 3) Better tax situations. All of these things allow the company to lower costs and post better profit margins. If you think it's evil evil evil to try and make a company more profitable, you've obviously never bought stock.
Secondly, labors costs usually are cheaper because companies are not required to provide the benefits or level of pay in foreign countries (e.g. China) that they are for workers here. This is due to Chinese law, so while corporations may be taking advantage of a morally questionable situation, you have to point some fingers at the Chinese government as well. They could easily legislate this kind of thing out of existence, but they don't because...
...Ta da! Money! As usual, we're talking about one of the poorer nations per capita in the world, rising superpower though they may be. China's population AND government is desperate for that hard American currency to flow into their economy, and flowing it is. That's why China's economic situation continues to improve and ours here in the US continues to decline. The Chinese are being fiscally responsible with their money. Their government has a budget surplus. Ours continues to fall further into debt each year on retarded expenditures and new age imperialism. And that goes for the reds and the blues - neither party is exempt.
So, long story short, it's a LOT more complicated than AMERICAN COMPANIES R EVIL!!!11 FIGHT THE MAN!!11
And, FWIW, I trust BD's gear. As they have stated, their China outpost is run by BD employees that worked/trained in the US and uses the same materials and QC procedures as their other operations. The gear is, no doubt, A-OK. They're probably capitalizing on the favorable exchange rate and tax situation, as you can do that by operating in a foreign country with absolutely no moral labor trespasses.
Jesus, there are few things more annoying than a half-informed rebel without a clue.
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carabiner96
Oct 12, 2007, 11:53 PM
Post #32 of 81
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Registered: Apr 10, 2006
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dylan1 wrote: Notice on then R.E.I. website it is stated "made in u.s.a." NOT china...by the way I returned the cams....also as a supervisor of a machine and maint. shop I manage a building full of people who lost jobs in the past due to manufacturng leaving the country.
Well that was dumb. Now they're going to dismantle and throw away perfectly good cams. Get off your high horse, asshat. The rest of us can't afford it,
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throb
Oct 13, 2007, 12:16 AM
Post #33 of 81
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Registered: May 29, 2005
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fitzontherocks wrote: From BD's web site: "All of our protection, Camalots, Stoppers, Micro Stoppers and Hexes are designed, manufactured and rigorously tested at Black Diamond, meaning you have one less thing to worry about when you’re runout, pumped and gunning for the anchors." And from REI's web site description of BD C4s: "Manufactured, inspected and individually tested in USA Made in USA." So what's the real deal? I think I'd raise hell with REI and find out what the deal is. Not that "Made in China" is necessarily bad, but this is a misrepresentation. Unless you're just making all this up, of course.
I noticed they don't say Assembled in the USA. It is sated below that BD does indeed Assemble (build) their cams in China.
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vegastradguy
Oct 13, 2007, 12:38 AM
Post #34 of 81
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Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
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dylan1 wrote: Notice on then R.E.I. website it is stated "made in u.s.a." NOT china...by the way I returned the cams....also as a supervisor of a machine and maint. shop I manage a building full of people who lost jobs in the past due to manufacturng leaving the country.
ah yes, so blame black diamond because rei is behind on updating their website....this just tells me that you didnt actually research the product before you purchased it. seems odd for someone so passionate about not buying anything made in china (i assume this also includes the Phillipines, Taiwan, etc, etc lots of other countries where we've sent jobs to) which, frankly, i have trouble believing you could avoid altogether.
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dylan1
Oct 13, 2007, 12:44 AM
Post #35 of 81
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correct if r.e.i. was correct, my decision may have changed.
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jmvc
Oct 13, 2007, 8:18 AM
Post #36 of 81
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Posts: 647
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cameltoe wrote: ... and I for one would like to point out tha americans don't speak english properly either, they speak american... In fact when I speak english I often find americans also have difficulties understanding it.. (I feel this is about the same level as commeting on BD cams being made in china) CT out (p.s. for those who didn't work it out already I am actually English)
One of the funniest ones I saw on this forum was a fellow talking about abseiling, and a guy replied saying "Rappel. Speak english."
(if somebody doesnt get the joke, abseil is english, rappel is french/american)
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docjacen
Oct 13, 2007, 10:58 PM
Post #37 of 81
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Posts: 258
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jmvc wrote: cameltoe wrote: ... and I for one would like to point out tha americans don't speak english properly either, they speak american... In fact when I speak english I often find americans also have difficulties understanding it.. (I feel this is about the same level as commeting on BD cams being made in china) CT out (p.s. for those who didn't work it out already I am actually English) One of the funniest ones I saw on this forum was a fellow talking about abseiling, and a guy replied saying "Rappel. Speak english." (if somebody doesnt get the joke, abseil is english, rappel is french/american)
Yeah, I love how intelligent everyone likes to pretend they are. As in,
"I dont realy like how they think thier spelling is so superior to ours. And how bad their grammar is. If their not careful, wer'e going to make fun of them!"
(Can you spot all the miistakes? Their's 8 of them)
(This post was edited by docjacen on Oct 13, 2007, 10:58 PM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 13, 2007, 11:34 PM
Post #38 of 81
(2725 views)
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Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
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carabiner96 wrote: omalavet wrote: everything you use in usa is made in china... you gringo guys think... that only the usa stuf works... usa is no the only country in the world dude.... get out there ja dood, git out theer!
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glytch
Oct 14, 2007, 3:35 AM
Post #39 of 81
(2676 views)
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Registered: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 194
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carabiner96 wrote: omalavet wrote: everything you use in usa is made in china... you gringo guys think... that only the usa stuf works... usa is no the only country in the world dude.... get out there ja dood, git out theer!
awesome.
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climb_ian
Oct 14, 2007, 3:55 AM
Post #40 of 81
(2667 views)
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Registered: Nov 28, 2005
Posts: 77
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dylan i think your a tool. but hey thats just my 2 cents. since you live in the usa you should make them in your garage. i.e than they would be made in the states. that has got to be safer.
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chriss
Oct 14, 2007, 4:17 AM
Post #41 of 81
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Registered: Jul 13, 2004
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jmvc wrote: (if somebody doesnt get the joke, abseil is english, rappel is french/american)
Sorry. But "abseil" is German.
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knieveltech
Oct 14, 2007, 4:59 AM
Post #42 of 81
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1431
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ja1484 wrote: dylan1 wrote: If the factory is maxed out, why not expand or build another facility in SLC to increase production or has manufacturing been moved to increase profits. If it a lot cheaper to make them overseas, lower the price. That is a big problem in America, corporations send jobs to s.e. asia forcing people to work jobs without benefits or decent pay by eliminating blue collar skilled jobs unless you can afford to go to a university This type of ignorant viewpoint is always so amusing.
Tell that to the many thousands of workers who are out of a job. Tell it to their faces.
In reply to: I love how people blame American companies for "forcing" people in these countries to work jobs under harsh/horrible conditions, as if they invade and do it at gunpoint. Allow me to improv a quick lesson in human rights and economics:
I agree with this provisionally, the real issue isn't that corporations are creating pools of slave labor, it's that American manufacturing is in the toilet and that is most definitely a problem. See also, MASSIVE trade deficit.
In reply to: American companies move labor jobs to other countries for three main reasons: 1) Labor costs are cheaper, 2) The exchange rate is favorable, 3) Better tax situations. All of these things allow the company to lower costs and post better profit margins. If you think it's evil evil evil to try and make a company more profitable, you've obviously never bought stock. In reply to: I don't think it's evil for a company to try to enhance profitability per-se, although stock as a concept generally isn't doing your average poor to middle class working family any good. I think it's evil that corporations have abandoned enrichment of their employees and communities in favor of maximizing profit in the short term. Due Diligence and minority shareholder lawsuits likely have a part to play in all of this. In reply to: Secondly, labors costs usually are cheaper because companies are not required to provide the benefits or level of pay in foreign countries (e.g. China) that they are for workers here. This is due to Chinese law, so while corporations may be taking advantage of a morally questionable situation, you have to point some fingers at the Chinese government as well. They could easily legislate this kind of thing out of existence, but they don't because... ...Ta da! Money! As usual, we're talking about one of the poorer nations per capita in the world, rising superpower though they may be. China's population AND government is desperate for that hard American currency to flow into their economy, and flowing it is. That's why China's economic situation continues to improve and ours here in the US continues to decline. The Chinese are being fiscally responsible with their money. Their government has a budget surplus. Ours continues to fall further into debt each year on retarded expenditures and new age imperialism. And that goes for the reds and the blues - neither party is exempt. A large contributor (if not THE contributor) to our declining economy would be the collapse of the manufacturing sector that have been shipped overseas. With manufacturing gone, and large swaths of the service economy rapidly following (IT stands as a classic example here), what, exactly, is the US economy supposed to consist of in a decade? We can't keep waging wars around the world to prop up our economy indefinitely. In reply to: So, long story short, it's a LOT more complicated than AMERICAN COMPANIES R EVIL!!!11 FIGHT THE MAN!!11 You're absolutely right, this situation doesn't reduce to pithy one-liners, however "FIGHT THE MAN!!111" might not be the worst idea anyone's had recently. In reply to: And, FWIW, I trust BD's gear. As they have stated, their China outpost is run by BD employees that worked/trained in the US and uses the same materials and QC procedures as their other operations. The gear is, no doubt, A-OK. They're probably capitalizing on the favorable exchange rate and tax situation, as you can do that by operating in a foreign country with absolutely no moral labor trespasses. Again, agreed. I have no qualms with using BD's products regardless of where they are manufactured, their record on QA and certification appears to be impeccable. And I concur that the blanket assumption that no quality products could possibly manufactured outside the US or EU is utterly ridiculous. However I think one of (perhaps THE) Great Unanswered Question regarding all of this is why outsource if the company was profitable while manufacturing solely in the States. Simple maximization of profitability speaks to greed plain and simple. Simply put, if they where making a profit and expanding their business manufacturing product in the US at the current price point, then in my mind the choice to outsource what would have been new job growth in this country only becomes ethically defensible if the savings are passed on to the consumer, and I haven't noticed BD coming down off the price of camalots.
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moss1956
Oct 14, 2007, 3:17 PM
Post #43 of 81
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Posts: 213
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Indeed, the real issue is that it is no longer economically feasible to manufacture goods in the US.
Its hard to blame companies for doing what they need to do in order to stay in business. The problem is much bigger than a single company, and so complicated that no one could list all the contributing factors.
It seems unlikely that our government is capable of formulating a plan to get us out of this mess. Instead, we will continue the slide towards having an obscenely rich few, living among underfed, under housed masses having poor access to health care.
Sort of like the rest of the Americas. 
To quote Bob Dylan " A hard rain is going to fall."
In the meantime, as long as I have the discretionary income and inclination to climb, I will purchase the gear that I consider to be the safest, paying no attention to where it is produced.
Some of that gear will have been designed, and distributed by Black Diamond.
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 5:58 PM
Post #44 of 81
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1436
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the one thing that wasn't covered, that i noticed was...
"who" is doing the assembly? i wonder if everything is going to china because they don't have to pay their workers as much?
i know that notion is a little exaggerated, but if all the new cams are from china, where are the new cams from the U.S.?
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majid_sabet
Oct 14, 2007, 6:04 PM
Post #45 of 81
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
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As I said in site before
THE AMERICAN FLAG IS MADE IN CHINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
what do you expect more ?
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live2climb
Oct 14, 2007, 8:04 PM
Post #46 of 81
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Registered: Jun 29, 2004
Posts: 157
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well ok then why dont you just go with some CCH cams and see how you come out they are made right here in the states, that should make you feel great whne your 10 feet above your gear and pumped on a finger crack
so HA
great screamers
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ja1484
Oct 14, 2007, 8:12 PM
Post #47 of 81
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knieveltech wrote: Tell that to the many thousands of workers who are out of a job. Tell it to their faces.
It's not anyone else's responsibility to ensure a person remains employed. That's called socialism. If you notice manufacturing jobs rapidly disappearing overseas, you need to go back to community college and learn to repair air conditioning units rather than build them.
It's really a simple concept: In America, you're responsible for your own financial vitality/employability (is that a word?). Anyone having issues with this...well, Europe's right across the pond.
In reply to: Again, agreed. I have no qualms with using BD's products regardless of where they are manufactured, their record on QA and certification appears to be impeccable. And I concur that the blanket assumption that no quality products could possibly manufactured outside the US or EU is utterly ridiculous. However I think one of (perhaps THE) Great Unanswered Question regarding all of this is why outsource if the company was profitable while manufacturing solely in the States. Simple maximization of profitability speaks to greed plain and simple. Simply put, if they where making a profit and expanding their business manufacturing product in the US at the current price point, then in my mind the choice to outsource what would have been new job growth in this country only becomes ethically defensible if the savings are passed on to the consumer, and I haven't noticed BD coming down off the price of camalots.
People go into business to make money. Who says it's more ethical to make 50 cents of profit per cam vs. $5 or profit per cam? That argument holds no water. Profit is either greedy or it isn't, period, and I leave that judgement to each person to decide. I myself think that old Socratic concept of giving until we are at the same level of poverty as those we are giving to is just silly. Some people in this world deserve poverty, others don't. Do all people in poverty deserve it? No, but it's a lot easier for me to pass the buck along on that one by noting that I don't work for unicef. Social injustices aren't my business, just like they aren't Black Diamond's business either.
Go into politics if you want to argue the merits of right and wrong. That's what legislation is for.
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jmvc
Oct 15, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #48 of 81
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chriss wrote: jmvc wrote: (if somebody doesnt get the joke, abseil is english, rappel is french/american) Sorry. But "abseil" is German.
That is as may be. It does not exclude it from being english. The two things are not mutually exclusive, so no need to apologize ;)
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moose_droppings
Oct 15, 2007, 4:24 PM
Post #49 of 81
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ja1484 wrote: Social injustices aren't my business, just like they aren't Black Diamond's business either.
Keeping the playing field level is the business of our government, which they have failed miserably at since most people don't give a shit anymore till its to late and it fails them. Our government is "the people", so indirectly it is each individuals business. Right back to, don't give a shit anymore, aren't we.
Their are a lot of people that would gladly pay more for something "made in the USA", just like some in other countries used to do since "made in the USA" used to equal quality products. OTOH there is a growing population in the US that can't afford higher quality products and are purchasing Walmart brand items. Its funny that some then complain about Walmart under selling our ma and pa shops, forcing them to close. All Walmart is doing is utilizing the overseas labor forces and translating it into profit for their investors, just like all the companies exploiting our governments failed trading policies.
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the_climber
Oct 15, 2007, 4:31 PM
Post #50 of 81
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
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carabiner96 wrote: dylan1 wrote: Notice on then R.E.I. website it is stated "made in u.s.a." NOT china...by the way I returned the cams....also as a supervisor of a machine and maint. shop I manage a building full of people who lost jobs in the past due to manufacturng leaving the country. Well that was dumb. Now they're going to dismantle and throw away perfectly good cams. Get off your high horse, asshat. The rest of us can't afford it,
Yeah, thanks asshat... for helping drive up the price of cams. Fucking tools, eh... they're everywhere
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