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newbieclimber
Oct 9, 2001, 7:52 PM
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whenever i see a situation like that i am at first fearful of saying anything even though i know i should. but then i imagine what if the very next climber falls. ill first of all have to look at a broken and twisted body which will probably make me vomit on the spot and ill be compelled to help in the rescue which will ruin my climbing day. with that in mind i interject and try to stop whatever i see being done that i don't think is safe. if i am wrong i will be embarrassed beyone belief but at least i know i did everything i could to prevent a serious injury or death. especially when their are children trusting an instructor you have to do something. at the least ask them what their instructors name is and then report him and follow up and make sure he never instructs again. i think you will find that local support in the climbing community would be forthcoming once you raised the alarm. even at this point i dont think it is too late for you to try and find out who the instructor is and sound the alarm. you may save a young childs life.
why not make this a rockclimbing.com project? there are area managers who can help and maybe track down the person.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-10-09 13:03 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 10, 2001, 12:02 AM
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As responsible experienced climbers, it is our RESONSIBILITY to speak up if we see something unsafe !!!
PERIOD !!!
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2001-10-09 17:03 ]
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kagunkie
Oct 10, 2001, 5:02 AM
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In the circumstance kylewa has brought up I may STOP EVERYTHING! Then fix the anchor myself, and if the "instructor" appeared I would simply say that I believed the anchor inadiquate and set it right. Nobody can argue with that. After all he wasnt there to monitor the situation and anything can happen. Sometimes you need to take matters into your own hands.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-10-09 22:03 ]
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paulc
Oct 10, 2001, 8:19 PM
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Yowch, someones upset. Hey you know what, I've seen some scary shit, but unless it looks like someone is going to get killed, or severely hurt, its like KY said, people are free to make their own choices. Even stupid ones.
If I have the chance to talk to people and show them the right way to do things then I do, if they don't want to listen or whatever then hey it is their life, sure I'll be pissed when my day gets ruined by having to rescue someone, but hey climbing can be dangerous. If you don't use your own head to think about things then no one else is required to do it for you. With the obvious exception of a paid guide and all that, and sometimes not even then. Look at Everest in '96 for example.
Shit happens.
Paul
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newbieclimber
Oct 10, 2001, 10:49 PM
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(& rradam- spare me the 'bold italic caps'... you should have all the facts before you start yelling at teh top of your lungs like that. Oooh- he must really mean it! Period! please...).
that gave me a good chuckle too. apparently rrradam has a chip on his shoulder. i apologize if i offended you.
a guide clipped into a single non locking krab on a hanging belay? i am sure he cannot be amga certified and he should be banned from guiding permanently.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-10-10 15:52 ]
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dean585
Oct 10, 2001, 11:16 PM
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I think a lot of people here are forgetting how mad some people get when other climbers correct what they are doing. I just recently went on a climb with a guide and we ended up having a conversation related to this very topic, of when to butt in and when to shut up when one observes mistakes that other climbers make. He said that he rarely ever butts in unless it looks like the person is going to die. He said that in the past he always used to open his mouth, but over the years has gotten cursed and screamed at, got spit on once and some teenagers threw a biner at his head. It isnt as easy as everybody thinks to correct others, and unless it is kids being put in jeopardy, I kind of think it is the adults responsibility to make sure that proper safety techniques are learned. With a sport this dangerous to not be careful is just plain stupid. However it is true that is it very hard to assume the role of climbing police. Most times it works out okay and the people thank you but sometimes it doesnt.
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froggy
Oct 10, 2001, 11:27 PM
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I think that unless someones life is in danger it is wise to keep your mouth shut. If you see people are going to get hurt - SAY SOMETHING! ummmm Duh!
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paulc
Oct 10, 2001, 11:35 PM
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Well, one arguement that I have is the contention that a clove hitch is unsafe in a static load situation. I usually tie into a LOCKING biner with a clove hitch even on a multipitch route. Its quicker and cleaner. Clove hitches don't slip until at least 1000lbs and last time I checked I didn't weigh that much. As long as the load bearing stand is aligned with the spine of the biner not the gate and tied correctly, then a clove hitch is perfectly safe.
Paul
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froggy
Oct 10, 2001, 11:48 PM
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It is a good idea to have redundancy and back up any type of slip knot.
Why not?.. it takes two seconds....
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froggy
Oct 11, 2001, 12:02 AM
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I am sure it is a safe slip knot that is why it is so widely used. It is fast and easy, but backing it up with an over hand knot also takes no time at all.. why not...
[ This Message was edited by: froggy on 2001-10-10 17:03 ]
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paulc
Oct 11, 2001, 1:22 AM
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How does one easily back up a clove hitch to an anchor biner? One end of the rope is tied to your harness and the other end goes down to your belayer? Assuming that you aren't leading solo of course.
If you happen to have enough slack from your 8 or whatever you used to tie in I suppose you could use that, but then what if the pitch is long or you only have a 50?
If you can tell me an easy way to back it up then I will consider it, but I don't think there is one.
And besides I go back to the original point, which was that unless the climbing rope breaks, anchor fails or the biner breaks there is no way for the clove hitch to fail under any normal circumstance.
Not that this is the be all and end all but several ACMG (AMGA, but in Canada) guides that I know do this and they tend to be the safest climbers around since they see and hear about all the dumb things that people do.
Paul
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froggy
Oct 11, 2001, 8:52 PM
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An 8 knot would be ideal, but if you don't have enough slack then just tie an over hand and clip it into a point on your anchor.
-at least you would be backed up if anything were to fail. It does only take 2 seconds, why not?...
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woodse
Oct 11, 2001, 9:36 PM
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I saw something very similar last week. I was climbing in Durango CO at a poular tr site. A group of christians were climbing on an tr anchor setup consisting of a weathered piece of webbing and 1 non-locking carabiner. I don't know what the experience level was of the person setting the anchor was but it looked pretty sketchy to me. This message is not in any way saying something bad about christians it was just a strange coincidence.
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rrrADAM
Oct 12, 2001, 6:16 PM
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What's the worst that can happen, I offend someone's EGO.
What's the best that can happen, I save someone's life or learn something I didn't know.
Like I said, "It's everyone's RESPONSIBILITY to speak up if they see something they think is unsafe, PERIOD !!!"
I've witnessed experienced climbers die from making a simple mistake due to complacencey. I'm sure that that person would not have objected to someone questioning him if he knew what was coming.
rrrADAM
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addiroids
Oct 17, 2001, 2:15 AM
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rrrADAM has it right. I'm sorry if the original poster took his reply too harshly, but as someone trained in Wilderness Medicine (WFR cert) I would ALWAYS prefer to prevent a situation from happening, rather than clean the dude off the rock later. It isn't an accident if it can be prevented. It is a mistake. By them, by you, and by everyone else who knew of the potentially dangerous situation.
And clove hitches are bomber. If on a locker or 2 opposed biners, they are not going to slip. EVER. If it is subjected to more than 1000 pounds (where did you get that figure?) it will only be for a fraction of a second unless you hang your entire camp off one and have 8 people on a 20 day wall.
TRADitionally yours,
Addiroids
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talons05
Oct 17, 2001, 3:37 AM
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That's a big point that RRADAM made, we can't be afraid to let someone know if they are doing something that looks sketchy to us... It really is a matter of life and death.
AW
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coach713
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Oct 17, 2001, 8:24 PM
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Coming from a VERY beginners climb in June, and not having much of a clue. One of my boye led the climb and put in locking quickdraws for the rope at top. We thought we knew how to clean a route but didn't. I started to try and figure it out on top when another climber watching us closely interupted. He asked if he could help. We said YES!!... He came over, cleaned the route and walked us through the whole thing then watch as we did another one. Ask if you can help. It very well could have cost me my life if another climber hadn't decided to help out that day.
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rrrADAM
Oct 17, 2001, 8:34 PM
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The title of this thread, started by you, is 'Scary Stuff'. If I see something 'scary' I'll intervene.
rrrADAM
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froggy
Oct 17, 2001, 11:27 PM
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Kylewa,
I don't get it ?
Wasn't the original question about whether or not to intervene?
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greatgarbanzo
Oct 18, 2001, 7:29 PM
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Sorry i know this has nothing to do but i am using the popularity of this forum to:
My name is Giancarlo Costacliola I am making an article and need your help. This is for the interest of the whole climbing community. please be HONEST:
Maximum level done onsight:
Maximum level redpointed:
Number of attempts to redpoint the route:
(this last one can be an aproximate)
Thanks a LOT, this three numbers you gave me will go to an statistic table.
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rocmonkey
Nov 2, 2001, 11:46 AM
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Not being nasty, but I think you should have acted when you saw what you saw. I would have gotten up there and secured that climb, even I it meant using my own gear.
I think the so called 'instructor' is a total oblivious idiot doing it for the money, or not getting paid for it and thinking "why should I care".
Come on guys, get involved and save new and young climbers untill theycan fend for themselves...
Breathe Stone
RoC
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laplaya
Nov 2, 2001, 2:17 PM
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now that it was brought up, I want to ask, is "unsafe" the common image of "christians" or other church groups that are climbing? I have lead several small groups of kids, and while I am not certifyed by anyone, I would like to think of myself as very safe. which brings me too another point...who would be the best group to get certifyed by for guilding un-experianced climbers?
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ecchastang
Nov 2, 2001, 2:37 PM
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back to the original point of safety, being new to climbing(2 1/2 months) I'm grateful when someone has been willing to correct me.
Eric
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greatgarbanzo
Nov 2, 2001, 9:16 PM
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For me the smartest thing to do is:
"It's everyone's RESPONSIBILITY to speak up if they see something they think is unsafe, PERIOD !!!" rrrADAM
PERIOD.
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nayjay
Dec 4, 2001, 12:17 PM
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Lew...
i'm not very good at this TR stuff and all them knots, but if i had screwed up my equipment somewhere and could get hurt from it, i sure as hell would want someone to tell me.
I agree wiff you kylewa, i wouldn't have done anything either and rrradam: you don't know everything about everything so unless you were there, keep it shut.
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