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EPiCJAMES


Dec 11, 2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
badsanta wrote:
Tanzman-JT512, with your loud mouth, know it all attitude, no one would or should ever listen to a word you have to say at the crag or anywhere else.

As always, feedback from our local psychopath is appreciated.

Jay

jt512 is a true dick on this site, HOWEVER, if he were to give me advice on climbing safer at the crag, i'd listen up.


caughtinside


Dec 11, 2007, 11:03 AM
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Re: [EPiCJAMES] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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EPiCJAMES wrote:
jt512 wrote:
badsanta wrote:
Tanzman-JT512, with your loud mouth, know it all attitude, no one would or should ever listen to a word you have to say at the crag or anywhere else.

As always, feedback from our local psychopath is appreciated.

Jay

jt512 is a true dick on this site, HOWEVER, if he were to give me advice on climbing safer at the crag, i'd listen up.

you should climb with badsanta/epicsaga/james wasser and let us know how that goes.


EPiCJAMES


Dec 11, 2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
EPiCJAMES wrote:
jt512 wrote:
badsanta wrote:
Tanzman-JT512, with your loud mouth, know it all attitude, no one would or should ever listen to a word you have to say at the crag or anywhere else.

As always, feedback from our local psychopath is appreciated.

Jay

jt512 is a true dick on this site, HOWEVER, if he were to give me advice on climbing safer at the crag, i'd listen up.

you should climb with badsanta/epicsaga/james wasser and let us know how that goes.

why put a damper on the climbing mood? i'd rather climb with gabe.


cosmin


Dec 11, 2007, 12:21 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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OK - am posting this before reading other people's posts:
>Scenarios 12345689 - i would say nothing

>Scenario 7 - i would stop them and insist on using a biner (my biner if needed)

C


jt512


Dec 11, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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Good discussion so far. I hope it continues. Here's what I actually did in each case.

In reply to:
Scenario 1.
A middle-aged climber is belaying a younger climber on a 5.9 sport route, which the leader is finding challenging, though she doesn't appear to be over her head. From the belayer's manner, you're essentially certain that he's a trad climber with many years of climbing experience, but he's belaying sitting down, has a large amount of slack in the rope, constantly holds the ropes together in front of his face with both hands wrapped around both ropes, and feeds slack by completely letting go with his brake hand and repositioning it on the rope.

This is actually a pretty common scenario around here. You can tell by the belayer's demeanor that he's been trad climbing since before you were born, but he has some bad habits. I rarely say anything in these situations because I don't think that someone with that much experience is going to be open to my suggestions. It may be the case that he's learned to belay safely in spite of his unorthodox method. Unfortunately, it may also be the case that he and his partners are of the old leader-must-not-fall school, and hence he has actually caught very few falls. But either way, I doubt that he'd be receptive to constructive criticism. Hence, I usually just walk on by.

In reply to:
Scenario 2.
Exactly the same scenario as above, except that the belayer is a famous climber from the '70s, with numerous first ascents of classic routes in Yosemite and elsewhere.

Same response as Scenario 1.

In reply to:
Scenario 3.

Again the same scenario, but the belayer and climber are both obviously beginners.

This is a common scenario, too. It differs from the previous two scenarios in two important respects. First, there is no chance that the belayer is safe, and second, the belayer will likely be open to instruction. So, when the belayer is inexperienced, I try and correct his technique. Sometimes, there is a more experienced climber in the belayer's group, in which case, I might approach that person instead.

In reply to:
Scenario 4.
A male and a female in their mid-teens, either a brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both, are "climbing" at an obscure local sport crag. They have real harnesses, but are wearing tennis shoes, and are using a hardware store rope. As you approach the crag, the male climber has just completed a rappel.

As most people who have commented realized, this is one of the more serious scenarios. If you observe kids unknowingly placing themselves in grave danger, I think you are morally compelled to intervene. The kids turned out to be nice and intelligent. I explained to them the difference between a climbing rope and a utility rope, and they immediately understood that the danger that they had put themselves in. I offered to let them use one of our ropes, and I suggested that they check out a nearby climbing gym, where they can get some climbing instruction.

This one had a happy ending. A couple years later, I saw the kids at the gym. They recognized me before I recognized them. They thanked me for helping them out that day they were out at the crag trying to kill themselves. They had joined the gym, bought climbing shoes and a rope, and, as far as I could see, had become safe climbers.

In reply to:
Scenario 5.
You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope."

Since I was heading for a different part of the crag, I just kept walking. Had I been climbing nearby, instead, I would have kept an eye on the group and intervened if I saw anything dangerous.

Since I thought the climber's quote was funny, I reported it on online, and it got picked up by several websites that collect climbing quotes. If you Google "convoluted belay" I think one of these websites pops up as the first listing on the page.

In reply to:
Scenario 6.
Same scenario as above, but instead the "teacher" says, "Back clipping isn't really that bad."

In this case, I stopped and demonstrated why back clipping can be dangerous. If you hold a draw up and backclip the rope through it, and then flick the rope down across the gate, you can get the rope to unclip. This always makes n00bs eyes pop out, as often, the n00b has been told not to backclip, but has never been told why.

In reply to:
Scenario 7.
A group of three arrives at the sport wall you're climbing. One of the group -- apparently the most experienced -- leads up to the 4th bolt of a sport climb, clips in direct, and calls "Off belay." He then girth hitches a nylon runner to the bolt, unties, feeds his rope directly through the runner, and raps down. He then instructs one his partners to tie-in to the rope to toprope the route.

As most people who've responded to the thread recognized, this was an imminent danger situation demanding immediate reaction. I was so shocked when I saw this scene that without thinking, I yelled, "What the fuck are you doing? That rope is going to burn through that sling and you're going to kill yourselves." Not the ideal response, but it got the point across. In my opinion, this group had no business at the crag, and I literally told they need to leave and not to return until they knew what they were doing. Oddly enough, they listened to me and left. I never saw them again, which is fine.

In reply to:
Scenario 8.
Part 1.
At your local sport crag two male climbers, one with his hair in a pony tail, who are wearing full military camouflage uniforms, including berets and infantry boots, but with no military insignia, are working a 5.11 route. The leader is struggling and hanging, and can't get past the first bolt. In spite of the fact that he's on a 5.11, and there are numerous easier routes in the area, your impression is that it is his first time climbing. Though the belayer's back is to you, he appears to be having an inordinate amount of trouble maintaining control of the belay.

What, if anything, do you do?

I approached the climbers to get a better look at why the belayer seemed to be struggling to control the rope.

In reply to:
Part 2.
Assume you decide to investigate. As you approach the climber, you find that although he has an ATC on his harness, he is belaying with the rope only passed through a carabiner on his belay loop for friction.

What if anything, do you do?

I explained that the belay was improper, and suggested that the climber come down, which he did. Apparently, even these two jackasses knew that something was amiss.

In reply to:
Part 3.
Assume you suggest that the climber return to the ground, and he does. You ask why the belayer wasn't using his ATC. He responds that they couldn't figure out how to use it.

What if anything, do you do?

This was a tough call. These guys knew nothing about climbing. They were unaware that climbs had different levels of difficulty, that there are guidebooks for climbing areas that explain this, etc. I doubt that these guys would have taken to the suggestion that they get some professional instruction before climbing; on the other hand, I didn't want to invest the time to give them a full-blown belay class. These were adults who made the choice to climb without the necessary knowledge to do so safely. I gave them a brief belay lesson, pointed them toward a 5.6, and moved on. I never saw them again either, which is also fine.

In reply to:
Scenario 9.
A group of four teenage males arrives at the sport crag, and one procedes to attempt to lead a tricky, sandbagged 5.11a. The leader is having trouble getting to the second bolt. He takes several whippers, including a couple of ground falls with rope stretch. Your impression is that they are 5.11 gym climbers, and that this is their very first outdoor route.

Unlike the soldiers of fortune in the previous scenario, these guys knew exactly what they were doing, in the sense that they understood the meaning of climbing ratings, had a guidebook, and had purposefully chosen a 5.11 as their first outdoor route. These guys clearly had earned the right to have their assess handed to them on silver platter, and far be it for me to interfere. They spent the whole afternoon taking turns on the route, and none of them got past the second bolt. The scene was entertaining, to the say the least. The looks on their faces when they stick-clipped the first bolt and then realized that they'd forgotten to clip the rope in first was worth the price of admission.

In reply to:
Scenario 10.
A strong European guy in his mid-20s has just lowered off a 5.10c sport route that he led with ease, and has cleaned all the draws, except for those on the anchors. The route goes up one wall of a dihdreal, traverses, and then goes up the other wall of the dihedral. His girlfriend has tied in and has started up the route on TR. As she gets to the start of the traverse, she is clearly struggling, and becomes frightened. She probably has a 50/50 chance of falling here, and if she does, she'll take a dangerous pendulum swing into the other wall of the dihedral.

This morning my girlfriend reminded me that I mis-stated this scenario. What had actually happened is that the guy had gotten off route on his lead, and had clipped an off-route bolt, but he was strong enough to recover, get back on route and finish it up. When he lowered, he cleaned all the bolts, except for the off-route one. This bolt was off to the right of the route, and made the potential pendulum even worse -- as Anna said, "way worse than any lead fall on the route would have been." The girl TRed up to the bolt and was hanging there, scared shitless, while her boyfriend constantly yelled at her to keep going. It was clear that she was in trouble and that the boyfriend was a moron. I said sternly and loudly enough for them both to hear, that she needs to come down, that she's off route and it's too dangerous to continue the climb from there. He was clearly pissed at me, but he lowered her and TRed the route himself to retrieve his gear.

Jay


onceahardman


Dec 11, 2007, 12:35 PM
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Hi jt512, I like the scenarios...in most cases, I'd tend to stand by, and observe more closely, Inquire a bit, and explain helpfully how to improve safety.

Except #7, in which I might tackle someone trying to top-rope on webbing only.

Injuries can lead to closures, DO SOMETHING if danger is at hand.

I have a question for you regarding part of #1:

In reply to:
but he's belaying sitting down

In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?

Thanks for a good, thought-provoking post.


drfelatio


Dec 11, 2007, 1:30 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
This morning my girlfriend reminded me that I mis-stated this scenario. What had actually happened is that the guy had gotten off route on his lead, and had clipped an off-route bolt, but he was strong enough to recover, get back on route and finish it up. When he lowered, he cleaned all the bolts, except for the off-route one. This bolt was off to the right of the route, and made the potential pendulum even worse -- as Anna said, "way worse than any lead fall on the route would have been." The girl TRed up to the bolt and was hanging there, scared shitless, while her boyfriend constantly yelled at her to keep going. It was clear that she was in trouble and that the boyfriend was a moron. I said sternly and loudly enough for them both to hear, that she needs to come down, that she's off route and it's too dangerous to continue the climb from there. He was clearly pissed at me, but he lowered her and TRed the route himself to retrieve his gear.

That is the most outlandish pile of bullshit I've ever heard.




We know you don't have a girlfriend.


(This post was edited by drfelatio on Dec 11, 2007, 1:30 PM)


jt512


Dec 11, 2007, 2:05 PM
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Re: [drfelatio] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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drfelatio wrote:
We know you don't have a girlfriend.

She's pretty amazing. Has to be to put up with me.

Jay


jt512


Dec 11, 2007, 2:18 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
Hi jt512, I like the scenarios...in most cases, I'd tend to stand by, and observe more closely, Inquire a bit, and explain helpfully how to improve safety.

Except #7, in which I might tackle someone trying to top-rope on webbing only.

Injuries can lead to closures, DO SOMETHING if danger is at hand.

I have a question for you regarding part of #1:

In reply to:
but he's belaying sitting down

In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?

Thanks for a good, thought-provoking post.

There are so many advantages to belaying standing up that I consider it mandatory. A standing belayer can spot the climber to the first bolt, he can move around to keep the rope out of the climbers way, he can dodge rockfall, he can run back to short rope the climber to prevent him from decking, and he can jump to provide a dynamic belay.

Jay


fulton


Dec 11, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Scenario 1: super-common anywhere with bolts.
Procedure: Glare at the belayer in an elitist way and say something like, "you know, I don't feel like being involved in any rescues today." Then find somewhere to climb out of earshot.

Scenario 2: never happens to me. (But if it did...)
Procedure: Smoke some pot so that he knows I'm cool and then climb somewhere that he can't see how poser I really am.

Scenario 3: these occasions require that climbers do the responsible thing and take a moment out of their day. This falls under the category of Stewardship and it goes along with picking up trash and beer cans at the crag--beginners eating shit is a great way for access to be jeopardized for everyone.
Procedure: help them out a little and, if they have drugs, invite them to do a route with you.

Scenario 4, 5, 6: like Scenario 1, super-common anywhere with bolts.
Procedure: see Procedure for scenario 1 but also make lewd comments to their women.

Scenario 7: in climbing, knowledge is safety and, proliferating bad information is tantamount to manslaughter.
Procedure: chastise with extreme prejudice. Call everyone names and try to start a fight if you can. If you have weapons, brandish them. Also, if possible, try to steal some of their gear--its for their own good.

Scenario 8: there is nothing urgent about this situation, the leader is only at the first bolt and, chances are the belayer will lower him before he gets much higher.
Comment: Ask them if they are military. If they are, then you know they are used to following instructions and learning mechanical systems, thus, they will probably be easy to teach. You ought to help them to the extent that they will let you, it should make you feel like a patriotic American, which isn't always such a bad thing. Not only that, they might let you shoot some guns or tell you a cool war story.
HOWEVER, if they are not military and are dressed as such, they are not doubt super douche bag confederate assholes--avoid at all costs.

Part 1; Procedure: after the leader is lowered, approach the trio and recommend an easier climb.

Part 2; Procedure: insist on leading a climb for them and putting up a top rope. Have your belayer give them a short tutorial during your lead. Be casual but helpful.

Part 3; Procedure: same as Procedure for Part 2.

Scenario 9: umm...hahaha...been there, done that.
Procedure: try not to be annoyed, maybe recommend an easier route. If they are really on 5.11 their first time out, then they are stupid but eventually will develop into strong climbers, so give them some advice.

Scenario 10: europeans struggling?
Procedure: find out whether or not they speak English. If they don't, rest assured, everything will be fine. That chick will pull through in fine style and probably be smoking a cigarette before she gets untied. They will probably onsight every one of your projects before the end of the day.


dj69


Dec 11, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Scenario 1.
A middle-aged climber is belaying a younger climber on a 5.9 sport route, which the leader is finding challenging, though she doesn't appear to be over her head. From the belayer's manner, you're essentially certain that he's a trad climber with many years of climbing experience, but he's belaying sitting down, has a large amount of slack in the rope, constantly holds the ropes together in front of his face with both hands wrapped around both ropes, and feeds slack by completely letting go with his brake hand and repositioning it on the rope.

What if anything, do you do?

Scenario 2.
Exactly the same scenario as above, except that the belayer is a famous climber from the '70s, with numerous first ascents of classic routes in Yosemite and elsewhere.

nothing, absolutely nothing

In reply to:
Scenario 3.

Again the same scenario, but the belayer and climber are both obviously beginners.

I would approach them, and hope they take my advice

In reply to:
Scenario 4.
A male and a female in their mid-teens, either a brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both, are "climbing" at an obscure local sport crag. They have real harnesses, but are wearing tennis shoes, and are using a hardware store rope. As you approach the crag, the male climber has just completed a rappel.

If i have an extra rope with me, i may just offer to set up a top rope for them.

In reply to:
Scenario 5.
You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope."

What if anything, do you do?

Scenario 6.
Same scenario as above, but instead the "teacher" says, "Back clipping isn't really that bad."

What if anything, do you do?

In both cases inform those "learning", that their friend is a morron.

In reply to:
Scenario 7.
A group of three arrives at the sport wall you're climbing. One of the group -- apparently the most experienced -- leads up to the 4th bolt of a sport climb, clips in direct, and calls "Off belay." He then girth hitches a nylon runner to the bolt, unties, feeds his rope directly through the runner, and raps down. He then instructs one his partners to tie-in to the rope to toprope the route.

tell them there sketchy

In reply to:
Scenario 8.

Recommend a course.

In reply to:
Scenario 9.

I would offer to clip the second bolt to avoid the ground falls, IF i could climb that hard.


In reply to:
Scenario 10

nothing


climbsomething


Dec 11, 2007, 7:12 PM
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lena_chita wrote:

jt512 wrote:
Scenario 5.
You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope."

What if anything, do you do??

O.K., VERY unreal scenario here. If they are teens who don't know anything, and there are no adults with them, where did they get all their gear from? Highly unlikely...
I can assure you, the scenario is true. I know exactly who Jay was talking about.

And by teen he meant about 18 or 19.


sky7high


Dec 11, 2007, 7:38 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Hi jt512, I like the scenarios...in most cases, I'd tend to stand by, and observe more closely, Inquire a bit, and explain helpfully how to improve safety.

Except #7, in which I might tackle someone trying to top-rope on webbing only.

Injuries can lead to closures, DO SOMETHING if danger is at hand.

I have a question for you regarding part of #1:

In reply to:
but he's belaying sitting down

In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?

Thanks for a good, thought-provoking post.

There are so many advantages to belaying standing up that I consider it mandatory. A standing belayer can spot the climber to the first bolt, he can move around to keep the rope out of the climbers way, he can dodge rockfall, he can run back to short rope the climber to prevent him from decking, and he can jump to provide a dynamic belay.

Jay

True, but this is not really all that necessary on common "local" crags, especially if people are toproping. It isn't very reassuring for the climber though, but it could be worse, the first time I got to climb outside, my belayer was laying down and half asleep. It scared the shit out of me, but I survived.

Edited to say: the comment about dodging rockfall is a good argument; I realized that after having belayed a friend on a forgotten chimeney, on a forgotten climbing area. He probably dislodged like half a ton of rocks of various sizes, all of which came thundering down straight at me.


(This post was edited by sky7high on Dec 11, 2007, 7:41 PM)


sky7high


Dec 11, 2007, 7:48 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
My response would range from nothing to fully taking over the belay, depending on how experienced the leader was. Is he an expert who understands that he's essentially free soloing the route? If so, there's no reason to do anything. At the other extreme, if there's a serious a chance he could fall and she wouldn't catch him, I'd at least back up the belayer, and possibly just take over the belay myself.

Jay

The route was pretty easy, although I don't think he realized he was going to free-solo the route, still the chances of him falling were close to zero.
Anyway, we intervened, and my experienced partner backed her up and guided her through the belay. They were very thankful (especially the girl), had fun and kept on climbing after we left to another area.


jt512


Dec 11, 2007, 8:01 PM
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Re: [sky7high] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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sky7high wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Hi jt512, I like the scenarios...in most cases, I'd tend to stand by, and observe more closely, Inquire a bit, and explain helpfully how to improve safety.

Except #7, in which I might tackle someone trying to top-rope on webbing only.

Injuries can lead to closures, DO SOMETHING if danger is at hand.

I have a question for you regarding part of #1:

In reply to:
but he's belaying sitting down

In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?

Thanks for a good, thought-provoking post.

There are so many advantages to belaying standing up that I consider it mandatory. A standing belayer can spot the climber to the first bolt, he can move around to keep the rope out of the climbers way, he can dodge rockfall, he can run back to short rope the climber to prevent him from decking, and he can jump to provide a dynamic belay.

Jay

True, but this is not really all that necessary on common "local" crags...

It's important at all my local crags.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 11, 2007, 8:01 PM)


Partner j_ung


Dec 11, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
...brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both...

Heh. Reminds me of badass and sarah.

There was a time when I would have attempted to speak with each and every one of the people in your examples, but those days are long gone. Most unsafe situations turn out okay without my input and I'm tired of being told to fuck off by idiots.

With that in mind, I speak up only for #s 4 and 7. Four involves kids. Seven is an imminent disaster. For all the rest, I spectate and, if they get much worse, consider speaking up.

This is a good thread.


jt512


Dec 11, 2007, 8:23 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
In reply to:
...brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both...

Heh. Reminds me of badass and sarah.

Yeah. Same ambiguity.

Jay


Partner j_ung


Dec 11, 2007, 8:47 PM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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In reading more of this thread, it seems like a lot of people would speak up about a lot of things. I suppose that's a good thing (I'm under no illusions that being jaded is cool), but I question some of the round-the-bush methods that are coming out. If you're going to say something, I say come right out and say it. It's possible to be polite without pretense.

"Hey, I'm sorry to butt in and feel free to tell me to fuck off, but your belay is way too loose. The bolt's only at her waist, but you have enough slack to put her on the ground. I'm sure she'd appreciate it if you shorten her potential airtime by about x feet."

But then, IMO, some people don't need politeness. They need a shock.

"Under load, your rope is going to burn completely through that runner in about two seconds. The first person who falls or lowers off will get complete and total system failure and all it implies. Why do you want to die on a fucking toprope? And you -- rope gun -- how about you go first?"


ja1484


Dec 11, 2007, 8:48 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?


Eliminates (mostly) possibility of an effective dynamic belay. Not the preferred situation.

Edit: JT512 got to it first and added the gravy.

j_ung wrote:
And you -- rope gun -- how about you go first?"

Partners and I have a tongue-in-cheek rule regarding toprope anchors: "You build it, you test it."


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 11, 2007, 8:51 PM)


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Dec 11, 2007, 9:36 PM
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Re: [ja1484] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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Difficult to say how I would react in any of those scenarios. If I was there in real life then I can use body language and voice feedback to allow me to proceed with any or none instruction/comments. That said I usually intervene and I don't care who or how famous they are, if they are doing something I consider crap then I will speak up or otherwise act. Mind you I do take into account whether they appear to be experienced or not and that definitely colours my language with respect or not as the case may be.

Of course gymbies are very entertaing to watch out on the crags and I would never intervene whilst they get their ass handed to them.

Excellent thread jt. Pity badsanta stepped in to spoil it.


yokese


Dec 11, 2007, 11:25 PM
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Re: [sky7high] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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sky7high wrote:
...the first time I got to climb outside, my belayer was laying down and half asleep. It scared the shit out of me, but I survived...

did you fall?


badsanta


Dec 12, 2007, 12:50 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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caughtinside, you're almost tied with JT512 in having no life:
Posts: 11674 (6.5 per day).
According to your BS climbing history you have no credibility either: Climbing Profile
Skills:
Lead | Follow
Trad: 5.1 5.15a
Sport: 5.1 5.15a
Boulder: V0
Ice: WI2 WI7
Aid: A0 A6

Anyone want to see him follow 5.15 and A6?


(This post was edited by badsanta on Dec 12, 2007, 1:00 AM)


viciado


Dec 12, 2007, 3:44 AM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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The discussion to which jt512 refers in his OP asks the question "is there a moral imperative for intervention?". The answer should be simply "yes," or "no." Here, I find the question of deontology, which is more complex and eventually more helpful becaue it makes me consider the issues at hand:

1) Is this really that dangerous that I need to intervene?
2) Is my intervention likely to result in a positive change in the situation? (NOT: is it worth my time, but, rather will I just make it worse by speaking or acting?)
3) How can I most effectively intervene?

I am likely to speak up in most of the situations outlined, but I need to consider the ramifications of my intervention. If non-intervention is likely to be the lesser danger, that's what I will do.


king_rat


Dec 12, 2007, 4:51 AM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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Scenario 1.

I probably would do nothing, the man belaying is experienced enough to know better and if he has not learned better technique by this point in his climbing career he is unlikely to do so now.

Scenario 2.

Same as above.


Scenario 3.

Depending on how well the lead climber is doing I would either stand with the belayer and talk them through belay technique, offer to take over and show them how to belay .

Scenario 4.

This would seem the most dangerous scenario, I would go over and chat with them explaining the dangers, if they seemed alright I might suggest that they climb with me and my partner.

Scenario 5.

Itís so ridiculous I would have to presume they are being sarcastic.

Scenario 6.

Nothing immediately I might keep an eye on them to see how they are doing.

Scenario 7.

Itís a scenario that is more then likely going to lead to a fall so would defiantly point out their error.

Scenario 8.
Part 1.

I would probably want to see why he is having such difficulty.


Part 2.

As the belay is next to useless I would suggest the leader downclimbs
Part 3.

This is a difficult one, I would not want to get involved in a belay lesson with people who are to stupid to grasp a very basic principle, primarily because I donít want to be responsible for them when they make an error which results in one of them taking a serious fall. But equally I would not want them continuing belaying as they are. I suppose this is a scenario in which my reactions would depend very much on how they react to being corrected.

Scenario 9.

In a scenario like this, it would seem that the climbers, know the signifcats of the grade they are climbing and how to use the gear. So probably would leave them to it(though I may hang round to enjoy the show)


Scenario 10.

Going by your description I donít think there is anything I could do immediately. Beyond offering help if an accident should occur, afterwards I may suggest ways of protecting the traverse. ?


king_rat


Dec 12, 2007, 5:10 AM
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Re: [jt512] Ten climbing scenarios: When do you intervene? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Hi jt512, I like the scenarios...in most cases, I'd tend to stand by, and observe more closely, Inquire a bit, and explain helpfully how to improve safety.

Except #7, in which I might tackle someone trying to top-rope on webbing only.

Injuries can lead to closures, DO SOMETHING if danger is at hand.

I have a question for you regarding part of #1:

In reply to:
but he's belaying sitting down

In and of itself, there is no problem sitting down to belay, provided a fall will not increase slack in the rope (unless I have missed some new rule of belaying) Likewise, standing to belay does not necessarily increase safety. So that statement seems irrelevant. Comment?

Thanks for a good, thought-provoking post.

There are so many advantages to belaying standing up that I consider it mandatory. A standing belayer can spot the climber to the first bolt, he can move around to keep the rope out of the climbers way, he can dodge rockfall, he can run back to short rope the climber to prevent him from decking, and he can jump to provide a dynamic belay.

Jay

While I agree in principle, I would add the caveat that its good habit to stand up and can make your belaying more efficient. However its not dangerous as such to sit down just bad habit. There are scenarios where it will make little difference whether you are standing or sat. The key thing is to be able to judge when it is and is not appropriate. The problem is that many new climbers(and perhaps not so new) lack the experience to judge when it is not appropriate. Therefore a good line to take is to say that you should always stand when belaying.

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