|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 14, 2008, 1:29 AM
Post #1 of 20
(4407 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Once to thrice weekly I post up asking noobish questions about ice climbing. Here is my latest installment.
How short is too short when it comes to picks?
I like to keep my picks sharp and rocks like to hide under snow. The result is frequent sharpening. Looking at my picks, I'm estimating that they are 3-4mm shorter than when new. If I file out the most recent gouge, I'll lose another 1mm.
Is there a length where the geometry is going to affect me? I realize the pick gets gradually thicker but I'm still getting great sticks, so I think I'm ok for now. Is there a definitive answer on this?
BTW, buying new picks isn't an option currently. My tools are hand-made and the maker isn't going to have time to make me new picks until this spring. I'll buy a crate of them when he does, but until then, should I just stop sharpening my tools?
(Yes I know I should just stop hitting rocks, but those bastards are so sneaky hiding under snow and all)
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 14, 2008, 3:44 AM
Post #2 of 20
(4381 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
It's not the Pick, it's the Climber!
Ya know, angry, the problem with shortening picks is you've gotta re-shape the whole front tooth, which with a file can take some time. It can be done with a dremel tool, but much care must be taken to not ruin the temper of the pick material. Get 'em too hot and they'll be brittle.
IMO, They're too short when they compromise your handle clearance. Up till then, anything's game. Ever see a hummingbird?
That's one there in the middle with a tube pick. Not much clearance at all on that little sucker, is there?
I suppose I could probably get more life outta my picks, but as you climb more you'll get better at recognizing where the ice is thin to non-existant. If there's no ice, there's no point in swinging an ice pick at it, is there?
Thin ice is usually found near the top of the formation, or just above/behind bulges with water running behind them. Some slabs are a given as well, but those are often best avoided when they're that thin.
Being smarter than the ice when you're climbing will cut down on your stool maintainence, which can be a time consuming boor. When you're less than sure if there's ice under that snow, scrape the snow off first or gently set your tool into it and rake toward you. This will tell you if there's ice under the snow, or a pick-eating rock.
If there is ice, but you suspect its thin, tap gingerly with your tool till you get a "just good enough" stick, then follow up with some careful footwork and precise body tension to make sure that you don't shift your weight on the tool. It can be scary sometimes, but climbing ice isn't anything like knitting, so you should expect it. That's what makes ice so alluring to me sometimes... the chance to taste the fear and decide if it's continue on up, or back down with tail between the legs.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Jan 14, 2008, 10:39 PM
Post #3 of 20
(4331 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
stymingersfink wrote: It can be done with a dremel tool, but much care must be taken to not ruin the temper of the pick material. Get 'em too hot and they'll be brittle.
I've always understood (and it has been my experience) that accidental overheating will SOFTEN the metal. Making it harder/brittle would involve some serious quench tempering.
stymingersfink wrote: Being smarter than the ice when you're climbing will cut down on your stool maintainence,
Leading on sketchy ice is indeed an exercise in STOOL maintenance! 
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Jan 15, 2008, 2:13 AM
Post #5 of 20
(4285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
chossmonkey wrote: Make sure not to leave a big flat spot on the second tooth as the pick angel gets less. Notice how the second tooth is filed into two teeth. I had left it tapered as normal to begin with but in my Vipers (lower pick angle) they popped right out because the second tooth wasn't really grabbing anything.
I've had several different tools do this (pop out due to a longish flat spot immediately behind the tip). It's a consequence IMO of the current trend to a large "beak" on the tool, presumably to enhance dry tooling. But I spend more time seeing how little I can trust, i.e. how shallow a stick will hold, than dry tooling. And these beaks tend to NOT HOLD in very thin ice. We're talking 1/4 to 1/3 inch deep here BTW. Not your typical good stick for leading on, but sometime it's just fun to pussyfoot up a silly smear, ya know?
Any way, here's a look at what I did to my Awax tips to improve the situation. As in the above post, there's a new pick shown for comparison. Notice the big beak, but more significantly, notice how it droops down on the new pick to the level of the teeth? Well, as the tip wears (the one shown has seen 3 years of light use) this droop disappears. That's when the slippage started. So I filed a couple "micro teeth" in there. They make a huge difference but of course it's still possible to slip the tool out if I'm careless.
Back to the OP, notice also that CAMP puts warning marks on the picks. These are about 3/8" (9mm) back from the tip.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 15, 2008, 2:24 AM
Post #6 of 20
(4277 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Good to know guys, thanks.
I fortunately have handmade tools from a guy who isn't into all these silly mixed tricks on his picks, so some of these aren't problems I have. I also climb only ice on them. If there's more than 10-15 feet of rock on a route, I use my Monsters.
It looks like I'll have no issue making it until this spring when he runs a new batch of picks.
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Jan 15, 2008, 12:07 PM
Post #7 of 20
(4245 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
gunkiemike wrote: I've had several different tools do this (pop out due to a longish flat spot immediately behind the tip). It's a consequence IMO of the current trend to a large "beak" on the tool, presumably to enhance dry tooling.
It sounds like my second tooth was doing the same thing as your first tooth was until I made the extra teeth in it. I guess the key thing is to make sure that there isn't a flat or smooth spot where the pick sits flat on the ice.
|
|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Jan 15, 2008, 1:49 PM
Post #8 of 20
(4222 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
angry wrote: I like to keep my picks sharp and rocks like to hide under snow. The result is frequent sharpening. Looking at my picks, I'm estimating that they are 3-4mm shorter than when new. If I file out the most recent gouge, I'll lose another 1mm. Is there a length where the geometry is going to affect me? I realize the pick gets gradually thicker but I'm still getting great sticks, so I think I'm ok for now. Is there a definitive answer on this?
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 15, 2008, 10:28 PM
Post #9 of 20
(4173 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
cantbuymefriends wrote: I'm just reading "Modern Techniques for Ice and Mixed Climbing", and he recommends about 1/4" (6-7 mm) as a general rule.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 15, 2008, 10:59 PM
Post #10 of 20
(4163 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
stymingersfink wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: I'm just reading "Modern Techniques for Ice and Mixed Climbing", and he recommends about 1/4" (6-7 mm) as a general rule. I'd also be willing to bet the author doesn't purchase his picks at $40 per.
No Will doesn't... as far as I know... Just look at the route "Money for nothing and your Picks for free"
Besides, he uses thouse disposible BD picks.
I wish the pics fo rmy tools were only $40 , I'd like a set of Cascades for Ice, keeping the Mixte for the rest of the time, but alas I file file file....
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 15, 2008, 11:00 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 16, 2008, 1:31 AM
Post #11 of 20
(4151 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
the_climber wrote: stymingersfink wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: I'm just reading "Modern Techniques for Ice and Mixed Climbing", and he recommends about 1/4" (6-7 mm) as a general rule. I'd also be willing to bet the author doesn't purchase his picks at $40 per. No Will doesn't... as far as I know... Just look at the route "Money for nothing and your Picks for free" Besides, he uses thouse disposible BD picks. I wish the pics fo rmy tools were only $40 , I'd like a set of Cascades for Ice, keeping the Mixte for the rest of the time, but alas I file file file....
Well, if you'd spend less time swinging your picks into rock, you'll spend far less time file file file!
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 16, 2008, 1:41 AM
Post #12 of 20
(4149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I'm trying really hard to say this nicely. I don't know if I can. I'll try.
I asked how short you can file a pick before it no longer will get a good stick in the ice.
I did not ask
-How to crawl up snow
-How to spot snow over rock
-What a hummingbird looked like (I've in fact climbed on them)
-Tales of heroism relating to your ice hardened adventures.
Sorry to come off like a cock stinkman but your response was akin to the ADD kid joke.
Q. How many AD/HD kids does it take to change a lightbulb
A. Lets go ride bikes
|
|
|
|
|
tuna
Jan 16, 2008, 1:45 AM
Post #13 of 20
(4146 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 188
|
Hey Angry post a pic of your axes
Would like to see some customs
ciao
Santana
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 16, 2008, 2:04 AM
Post #14 of 20
(4136 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
angry wrote: I'm trying really hard to say this nicely. I don't know if I can. I'll try. I asked how short you can file a pick before it no longer will get a good stick in the ice. I did not ask -How to crawl up snow -How to spot snow over rock -What a hummingbird looked like (I've in fact climbed on them) -Tales of heroism relating to your ice hardened adventures. Sorry to come off like a cock stinkman but your response was akin to the ADD kid joke. Q. How many AD/HD kids does it take to change a lightbulb A. Lets go ride bikes
See, as with most conversations, it's important to let it wander somewhat, such that something overheard just might trigger a thought/memory in someone's less-fired neurons.
I wouldn't say that I've been particularly off-topic, though some response may be less pertinent than others, I didn't bring up how many flies it takes to screw in a lightbulb (everyone knows it only takes two, but hell if I know how they get in there).
SO...
pour yourself another drink, relax a little, and wish that your tool designer had thought it through far enough to build a toolhead that would take a more commercially available pick, while kicking yourself for not purchasing enough picks to get you through the dry times in between his production runs, and lamenting WTF you're gonna do when the guy decides that he's gonna give up tool manufacture and take up knitting.
if there's not enough information floating around in this thread for you to make a semi-informed decision on how short is too short for you (I'm talking about PICKS), and the best ways to mitigate some of the concerns raised when dealing with shortened picks, then perhaps you'd better consider taking up knitting yourself.
OTOH, if you find it too annoying to ignore my response, perhaps YOU should become the new MOD. Then you could just delete or recycle the offending posts.
Good Day (or night, as it's turning. whatever)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 16, 2008, 3:00 AM
Post #15 of 20
(4122 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
stymingersfink wrote: the_climber wrote: stymingersfink wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: I'm just reading "Modern Techniques for Ice and Mixed Climbing", and he recommends about 1/4" (6-7 mm) as a general rule. I'd also be willing to bet the author doesn't purchase his picks at $40 per. No Will doesn't... as far as I know... Just look at the route "Money for nothing and your Picks for free" Besides, he uses those disposable BD picks. I wish the picks for my tools were only $40 , I'd like a set of Cascades for Ice, keeping the Mixte for the rest of the time, but alas I file file file.... Well, if you'd spend less time swinging your picks into rock, you'll spend far less time file file file!
Sty buddy, the Cascade picks have less volume and displace less ice than the Mixte Picks... reducing the volume is why I'm considering the file file file approach. I typically only file my picks a couple tiles a season, and have never had to replace a pick on either set of my tools, I bought a couple spare picks for my old Fly's just before getting Taa-k-oon's... as my fly's are now typically only used for alpine and by noobs, or in the case right now my friend's son.
Grivel picks... they're Brenden proof!
Re: Humming Birds, Yep, I'ce climbed on a pair.... and daaaaammmmmnnnnnnnnnn, my knuckles still hurt just thinking about them.
Now on to Angry's question.... it's not a matter of how short you can go. What it comes down to is if your intuitive abilities about the nature of how and why your picks stick is matched by your artistic talent to file the remaining pick length to the right shape.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 16, 2008, 3:15 AM
Post #16 of 20
(4116 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
stymingersfink wrote: pour yourself another drink, relax a little, and wish that your tool designer had thought it through far enough to build a toolhead that would take a more commercially available pick, while kicking yourself for not purchasing enough picks to get you through the dry times in between his production runs, and lamenting WTF you're gonna do when the guy decides that he's gonna give up tool manufacture and take up knitting.
Now you old geezer, you might be able to answer another question for me. These tools were designed about when I graduated high school, 1997. The heads were built to accept Petzl/Charlet picks. Jim had no way to know that those snail eatings turds would in fact completely change their bolt pattern. So, in your geezerness, do you know if I can get whatever the fuck it was that was standard in 1997 on Petzl/Charlet tools?
Also, you can dis the designer all you want, the fact of the matter is that you are probably swinging brand new tools that might compare to Stanley Alpine in hero ice. Also, which one of us can use the phrases "my ice tools" and "hand-made titanium" in the same sentence (yes I realize you could say, "Gosh I wish my ice tools were hand-built titanium ones like yours are" but you get the point)?
Add to that a pair of tools that look like something the tinman's grandpa swung and I'll drop so many bags of sand on you you'll need a shovel to dig out.
Edited to add: I did pour myself another, can't you tell. Tomorrow is the scariest day of my life, I'm only talking shit to calm my nerves, so bite me.
(This post was edited by angry on Jan 16, 2008, 3:17 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 16, 2008, 3:50 AM
Post #17 of 20
(4103 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
angry wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pour yourself another drink, relax a little, and wish that your tool designer had thought it through far enough to build a toolhead that would take a more commercially available pick, while kicking yourself for not purchasing enough picks to get you through the dry times in between his production runs, and lamenting WTF you're gonna do when the guy decides that he's gonna give up tool manufacture and take up knitting. Now you old geezer, you might be able to answer another question for me. These tools were designed about when I graduated high school, 1997. The heads were built to accept Petzl/Charlet picks. Jim had no way to know that those snail eatings turds would in fact completely change their bolt pattern. So, in your geezerness, do you know if I can get whatever the fuck it was that was standard in 1997 on Petzl/Charlet tools? Also, you can dis the designer all you want, the fact of the matter is that you are probably swinging brand new tools that might compare to Stanley Alpine in hero ice. Also, which one of us can use the phrases "my ice tools" and "hand-made titanium" in the same sentence (yes I realize you could say, "Gosh I wish my ice tools were hand-built titanium ones like yours are" but you get the point)? Add to that a pair of tools that look like something the tinman's grandpa swung and I'll drop so many bags of sand on you you'll need a shovel to dig out. Edited to add: I did pour myself another, can't you tell. Tomorrow is the scariest day of my life, I'm only talking shit to calm my nerves, so bite me.
Geezerness? Geezerness!?
fuck. I'm probably younger than you are. Certainly haven't been climbing (consecutively) as long that's for sure. No, I don't need you to prove me wrong, either. Wait.. you graduated in '97? Nevermind.
Here's an idea, since yours are "handmade titanium"... send them back to the manufacturer and have him re-hand-make the head of your tool handle for ya to fit the current bolt pattern.
besides, I've seen my tools get made... they're all hand-made too. Well, assembled by hand from what I saw. The guys at Easton or some-such will have to vouch for the handles.
Oh, and my grandpa didn't climb ice. Wait, I guess that's another name from another time. You should have known me then
Now that I think about it, i seem to recall some old-school picks under the counter at the BD retail store a few years back. Whether they were truly old-school or just unfamiliar IDK, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give 'em a shout tomorrow, maybe talk to Dennis and see if he can find 'em (if they're still around). Otherwise, some smaller shops in NW Wyoming might be a decent tree to bark up as well.
and another thing: I'll put my 5 y.o. tools head to head with yours any day. Get thee to Provo Canyon! (i need a partner for weeknights after work )
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 16, 2008, 3:58 AM
Post #18 of 20
(4099 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Hey Angry, if that is the case about being designed to fit the old CM picks, check out Mountain Magic in Banff.
Site:http://www.mountainmagic.com/
T-Rated Quasar & Axar 4mm picks
According to MEC's webpage they still have the B-rated picks <---Click
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 16, 2008, 4:06 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Jan 16, 2008, 11:53 AM
Post #19 of 20
(4072 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
angry wrote: I'm trying really hard to say this nicely. I don't know if I can. I'll try. I asked how short you can file a pick before it no longer will get a good stick in the ice. I did not ask -How to crawl up snow -How to spot snow over rock -What a hummingbird looked like (I've in fact climbed on them) -Tales of heroism relating to your ice hardened adventures. Sorry to come off like a cock stinkman but your response was akin to the ADD kid joke. Q. How many AD/HD kids does it take to change a lightbulb A. Lets go ride bikes
[whisper]You forgot to tell everyone to eat your ass.[/whisper]
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Jan 17, 2008, 1:49 AM
Post #20 of 20
(4030 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
I've seen a lot of Quasar picks out there for sale. Wish I could remember where I saw them (sorry). Pulsar's might be a different story. Both tools were common in "97 IIRC.
|
|
|
|
|
|
picks-005-resized.jpg
