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climblade540
Jan 3, 2008, 3:58 PM
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I recently got a pair of Rock Rings from REI and had been doing the workout that came with them, but i had to do a lot of extra stuff (slow pull-ups, pull-ups and dead hangs to failure, etc.) when it was over because I didn't get a good enough burn. Does anyone know of a good modified rock rings workout? Also, does anyone have a good core workout that doesn't require and weights or equipment? Thanks a lot!
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aerili
Jan 3, 2008, 4:42 PM
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You can check out some of the core stuff I put together for another user on the thread (link below) and print out the attached pdf. You would have to buy a stability ball, but they only cost $15-25.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=1758857;#1758857
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colatownkid
Jan 3, 2008, 4:50 PM
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if you want to work your core without using weights, you need to engage the weight you have in your legs. basically, this means that crunches are fairly useless. they only engage your upper body weight at best. they only exist because anyone can do them; you could use them as a warm-up.
if there's an abs/core oriented aerobics class at your gym, you'll find plenty of good exercises without weights. v-ups work pretty well, various leg lifts, the plank, bicycles, etc. if you really want to work, hang from the the rock rings and try pikes, leg raises, and front levers.
(This post was edited by colatownkid on Jan 3, 2008, 5:25 PM)
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snurp
Jan 17, 2008, 10:46 PM
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I'll try to explain my favorite core exercise, but forgive me if I don't do a good job. This one uses the rings or a pull up bar, campus board, or hang board.
Grab the ring with your right hand.
Grab your right wrist with your left hand. (This is a one arm pull up with training wheels)
Perform the pull up and hold at the top.
Keeping your knees together, pull them up to your chest so your body looks as it would if you were sitting in a chair.
Keeping the chair position with your legs together, rotate your hips so your knees point to the left.
Complete the motion by crunching hard with your obliques to touch your right shin to your right elbow.
Release.
Pant.
Repeat with left hand.
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anykineclimb
Jan 17, 2008, 11:45 PM
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when doing your hangs/ pullups, raise your knees so your thighs are horizontal. as you progress, work on having your legs totally out in front of you.
you can do the same sort of thing between two chairs
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ryanb
Jan 18, 2008, 12:08 AM
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Push ups on those rock rings (extend them so they are close to the floor).
You can also start in from the knee push up position on the rings and then push them out in front of you and pull them back to below you.
Keep your back straight either way, its a killer work out when done right.
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anykineclimb
Jan 18, 2008, 12:57 AM
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oh heres another one:
extend the rock rings so they're about 3-4 ft off the ground. now get under them and "hang", but put your feet onto a chair in front of you.
now you can just hang there, with your body straight or do rows.
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fluxus
Jan 18, 2008, 2:05 AM
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The problem with most of the activities suggested thus far is that they place the emphasis pretty much only on the hip flexors and the Abs. Yes, the abs are important for stabilizing the pelvis on steep moves but body tension in climbing is more a function of trunk extension and lateral flexion (the abs contribute to this movement but should be trained specifically for it.), as well as hip extension. Training the abs is fine, but without training the muscles in the movements I just mentioned you are missing the key to so called core strength and body tension. From the analysis I've done I just don't see how hip flexion plays much of a role at all in core strength for climbing or body tension.
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iwasasportweenie
Jan 18, 2008, 2:17 AM
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I'm wondering if there's a specific reason you're opposed to weights. Lack of access? Concern about injury?
Unless you're training to climb a 30-foot roof, chances are you only need to really engage your core muscles for a few moves during the course of climbing even a fairly long route (glassy footholds, roofs, etc). So your biggest concern is increasing core power, not endurance.
If you can't do leg lifts while hanging from your rock rings (I'm guessing you can or you wouldn't be asking), then doing leg lifts with legs bent, then straight, would be excellent training. Planks, leg flutters, leg lifts, V-ups, those can all help too, although you should take care to do them with proper form or your back may suffer.
But if you specifically want to help your climbing, and leg lifts are no problem for you, you pretty much need to get weight involved. This might just mean sticking your feet through a backpack with a couple of books in it. You don't need to own "weights" to add weight.
Incidentally, improving core strength (like finger strength) will help with endurance. The converse isn't true.
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climblade540
Jan 21, 2008, 9:32 PM
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Thanks to everyone for the responses!
In regard to iwasasportweenie, I don't want to use weights because of lack of access and the fact that I am an intense distance runner. Also an earlier post said training the hip flexors would not help climbing, I agree with that, but it would help my running.
Thanks again!
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aerili
Jan 21, 2008, 11:10 PM
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climblade540 wrote: Also an earlier post said training the hip flexors would not help climbing, I agree with that, but it would help my running.
Well, even so, an "ab" plan comprised mainly of hip flexor-dominant, hanging and plank exercises is not what I would recommend even for a long distance runner. You still need balanced strength on all sides of what we refer to as the lumbo-pelvic complex. Furthermore, many runners have tight hip flexors to begin with; by doing such hip flexor dominant strengthening, you can further reinforce the muscles' shortened position. Using more rectus/oblique/transverse-dominant exercises + backside muscle training will help to counteract the forward-pull on your pelvis from the hip flexors. Not to mention it is difficult to run with a good, erect upper body form if your low back doesn't have excellent muscular enough to do so. Training the low back and glute/ham complex can help to signal the hip flexors to relax and lengthen (+ of course some stretching as well).
The core handout I created (through the link in my earlier post) shows several great, cheap ways to do multi-muscle, multi-planar, total 180* core work and are used by top pros in the conditioning industry for various kinds of athletes. There are lots of other ones, too, and the Pilates recommendations by others are also very good. Continue to think as comprehensively as possible and good luck. 
Edited for clarity.
(This post was edited by aerili on Jan 22, 2008, 6:45 PM)
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lithiummetalman
Jan 21, 2008, 11:23 PM
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General Fitness non-weight workout
1. One arm-pushups
2. One legged squats
none of these exercises have helped my climbing, but has helped keep me in relatively good shape
edited for clarity
(This post was edited by lithiummetalman on Jan 24, 2008, 1:39 AM)
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fluxus
Jan 23, 2008, 3:05 AM
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aerili wrote: The core handout I created (through the link in my earlier post) shows several great, cheap ways to do multi-muscle, multi-planar, total 180* core work and are used by top pros in the conditioning industry for various kinds of athletes. There are lots of other ones, too, and the Pilates recommendations by others are also very good. Continue to think as comprehensively as possible and good luck.
That's a good start but the discussion needs to be more detailed. I think most climbers have no idea what the role of corse strength is in climbing, or that the concept of body tension is far more important. Further body tension is as dependent upon intermuscular coordination as it is strength.
What's so interesting about body tension is that it typically involves extension of the trunk and hip while at the same time it can also have rotation of the hip, and at the knee and ankle there is often a combination of flexion and extension. So there is a lot going on and a lot of timing is involved. But when look at video of climbers falling on steeper moves we almost always see the same thing, it begins with hip flexion.
as an aside Ariel, other than back extensions with weight, what other activities would you suggest for strengthening the Erector Spinae group?
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miavzero
Jan 23, 2008, 5:20 AM
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This may be anecdotal, but I spent and entire winter training on a steep 60 degree bouldering wall, and found that I had a much easier time maintaining body tension on all types of routes.
Also, I could also do gymnastic stunts that I could not do the previous summer. During the winter I did not training beyond a few light runs a week, killer bouldering sessions on the 60, and the occasional sunny weekend climbing outside.
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hyongx
Jan 23, 2008, 5:51 AM
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fluxus wrote: as an aside Ariel, other than back extensions with weight, what other activities would you suggest for strengthening the Erector Spinae group?
FLUXUS VS. AERILI
Round II
Fight!!!
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miavzero
Jan 23, 2008, 5:57 AM
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hyongx wrote: fluxus wrote: as an aside Ariel, other than back extensions with weight, what other activities would you suggest for strengthening the Erector Spinae group? FLUXUS VS. AERILI Round II Fight!!!
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fluxus
Jan 23, 2008, 6:07 PM
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hyongx wrote: FLUXUS VS. AERILI Round II Fight!!!
Wow, check out the blood lust! I hope that my posts didn't read as an attack on Ariel, that was not my intention . . . this time.
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aerili
Jan 23, 2008, 6:47 PM
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fluxus wrote: That's a good start but the discussion needs to be more detailed.
I guess I am too lazy and too busy at work to get into more detail!!  Plus, I was responding mainly to his statement re his needs in running as a major activity, too.
In reply to: What's so interesting about body tension is that it typically involves extension of the trunk and hip while at the same time it can also have rotation of the hip, and at the knee and ankle there is often a combination of flexion and extension. So there is a lot going on and a lot of timing is involved. But when look at video of climbers falling on steeper moves we almost always see the same thing, it begins with hip flexion. as an aside Ariel, other than back extensions with weight, what other activities would you suggest for strengthening the Erector Spinae group?
Well, wrt to the biomechanics of body tension in a dynamically moving prone position (i.e. face up on bulging or overhanging terrain), yes, all those joint movements can appear to be happening. However, there is no conditioning core exercise that can directly mimic chains of movements like that b/c it's so specific.
Anyway, thinking about specifically training the erector spinae group is only somewhat useful. First of all, I look for exercises that also focus on the multifidus, since it's a spinal stabilizer and can be notoriously weak in many people. No use having strong erectors and weak multifidii. Secondly, I personally like exercises that incorporate the entire (of what is called) "posterior chain"—this refers primarily to low back muscles, glutes, hams, and calves (all involved as we see in your body tension example). Additionally, any time a glute muscle is fired, it automatically fires the opposite side erector muscles, so they work together.
If you take a look at some of the exercises in the pdfs I made previously, fluxus, you will actually see many examples of great exercises that work the entire posterior chain together, including many that require stabilization that calls into action the multifidus and deep abdominal muscles, not just the superficial muscles. Such exercises include the supine stability ball leg curls, various forms of bridging exercises (with the ball or on floor alone, knees bent or knees almost straight), prone kneeling hypers, reverse hyperextensions, supermans, prone extension of all arms and legs simultaneously, standard deadlifts and straight legged deadlifts. Not all of these are climbing specific exercises, but they are all good general conditioning exercises that will improve posterior chain strength for any climber. The only thing that’s really hard to train within a compound movement here is ankle dorsiflexion (i.e. toeing in and pulling up).
Also, one of the most advanced bridging exercises one can do is to get into a position on the ball wherein the back of your head and shoulders is supported on the ball, knees at right angles, and hips lifted as high as you can. Then, while maintaining your position as perfectly as possible, lift one foot off the floor and extend the leg until completely straight and inline with the opposite leg. Your butt should NOT drop while you do this. Hold a couple seconds. Place foot down, repeat on other side. Continue.
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aerili
Jan 23, 2008, 6:52 PM
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fluxus wrote: hyongx wrote: FLUXUS VS. AERILI Round II Fight!!! Wow, check out the blood lust! I hope that my posts didn't read as an attack on Ariel, that was not my intention . . . this time.
LOL
BUT if you keep spelling my name wrong, things could get sticky, bud!!!!!
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onceahardman
Jan 23, 2008, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: standard deadlifts and straight legged deadlifts
You Rock! two of my favorites as well! When people reach plateaus with other training regimens, it's sometimes amazing how doing heavy deadlifts for a while will help smash through the plateau...
Also, more dynamically, I really like Powercleans...the first half of the Clean-and-Jerk lift. When done well, huge weights "leap" off the floor! Great for increasing power!
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serpico
Jan 23, 2008, 9:05 PM
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I've been working my way through the exercises you were kind enough to post (thanks!), I hate all the ones that involve the hams/heels on a Swiss ball (I think I've identified a big weakness) - so must try harder.
Anyway, an observation on something that happened today; I was trying a roof problem that involved a long stretch to slopers around the lip. You have to be horizontal with left foot on a smear and right toe in a poor toe hook. I couldn't seem to generate the body tension to do it until on one attempt I tried a technique that's used in the Pilates roll-up exercise - abdominal hollowing. This seemed to make a huge difference; I did the move and repeated it several times whilst trying this problem and another which shares the same start.
Now presuming that the effect it had was real, not just a psychological one because I know that does happen, it made me think there's a real difference between training the core muscles and learning to recruit them in a climbing situation.
Does that sound plausible, is it something that's worth incorporating into a climbing drill - making abdominal hollowing second nature.
Abdominal hollowing: Drawing the navel in towards the spine whilst breathing out. Just in case anybody was wondering.
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miavzero
Jan 23, 2008, 9:41 PM
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I understand the reasons for not training movement with balast weight, but what about doing systems training on a 45-60 degree wall with a weighted (5-10 lbs) fanny pack worn so that it rests in front. Doing this would force the core muscles to work harder if the climber focuses on preventing hip flexion.
I prefer to just climb, but perhaps this exercise would be more sport specific than back extensions?
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aerili
Jan 23, 2008, 10:22 PM
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serpico wrote: Does that sound plausible, is it something that's worth incorporating into a climbing drill - making abdominal hollowing second nature.
I know the exercise you're talking about and I think Pilates has a lot of great exercises that can be used (and which I use all the time in my own workouts).
The roll-up exercise emphasizes exaggerated abdominal hollowing; however, the focus on engaging the deep transverse muscle by drawing it in is something that should be done with basically most or any exercises, esp. the more intense the exercise, the more you need to focus on doing this. The problem is not that training core muscles is so different from climbing, running, or whatever, it's that people aren't recruiting their muscles correctly during core training to begin with. For most intrinsic, deep stabilization, I believe healthy firing patterns retain a proper order regardless of what you're doing (um, maybe onceahardman can correct me if I'm wrong on that one).
I can't make a snap biomechanical analysis of the move you were doing earlier, but I would theorize that your "drawing in" manuever assisted in more effectively stabilizing your lumbo-pelvic complex to a degree that you could generate more force to make the move with your extremities. (Maybe fluxus has more to say on that.) You can now visualize how this recruitment "felt like" during that exercise and transfer it to your core workouts--since you should be anyway. 
(This post was edited by aerili on Jan 23, 2008, 10:23 PM)
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serpico
Jan 23, 2008, 10:33 PM
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aerili wrote: The problem is not that training core muscles is so different from climbing, running, or whatever, it's that people aren't recruiting their muscles correctly during core training to begin with.
That's what I was thinking, specifically: that I have to think about hollowing for proper recruitment during the roll-up because that's in the instructions for the exercise, but I haven't made the same effort in applying it to actual movement, until now.
Something to work on.
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aerili
Jan 23, 2008, 10:44 PM
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miavzero wrote: I understand the reasons for not training movement with balast weight, but what about doing systems training on a 45-60 degree wall with a weighted (5-10 lbs) fanny pack worn so that it rests in front. Doing this would force the core muscles to work harder if the climber focuses on preventing hip flexion.
I honestly am not sure what that would do. Because your body is not purely horizontal, however, the forces would still be acting on your body in a way that may alter your cog and change your moves (vs., say, pushing straight down on your body while you traverse a roof or something). Or it may have no statistical significance on improving your core in a functional manner. Not to mention if your moves required any twisting, drop knee, or whatever, the weight's placement in front may still act as balast as your torso changes relative position.
In reply to: I prefer to just climb, but perhaps this exercise would be more sport specific than back extensions?
Keep in mind general conditioning exists for a reason and other, more sport specific conditioning never exactly mimics the actual moves of the sport (at least, this has been the trend in the field during the last 5 years or so once they realized athletes' performances were either not improving or actually getting worse and/or injuries were occurring).
What you could do is get under a gym bouldering roof with big, juggy handholds and footholds of whatever size. Don’t climb but just do reps of pushing your hips toward the roof (i.e. extension + tension). To make it harder and/or add variety, do it with one leg only (this should be much harder), make your handholds reachy (i.e. longer lever), make footholds smaller or smearier, vary the foot placements into staggered positions, etc. I’ve never tried this, it just popped into my head as a possibility. Maybe it would work.
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