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Poll: Question for Old Geezers
I climb more sport for convienience, but at my heart, I am trad. 21 / 19%
I started trad, cause that's all there was, now I pretty much stick to sport 6 / 5%
I have and always will be a trad climber, damn kids and their damn bolts. 22 / 20%
I am John Gill 6 / 5%
I am less than 49 years old but wanted to answer anyway. 55 / 50%
110 total votes
 

Partner angry


Feb 22, 2008, 8:44 AM
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Question for Old Geezers
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This question is for the greyer generation on this site. Please be 49 years old or older to answer (see option 5).

I realize all you who started prior to 1980 or earlier pretty much only climbed trad. In fact, there was no trad, only climbing, and it was largely protected by removable gear.

Now that there's options, I wonder where you've gone. I'd like to know what style the older generation is climbing on. Please don't just answer based on your opinion, answer based on what style you are actually getting miles on.

In the trivia and history section because you trivial old bastards are history!!!


olderic


Feb 22, 2008, 9:00 AM
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Couldn't resist this one seeing as it seemed to be directly addressed to me - I am well over your 50+ geezer threshold.

Yes I climb more sport then trad now - mostly because it is so damn convenient. Another factor is that that is where most of the new route activity is happening around here. Even though I am old I like to do new things. I had climbed the majority of classic trad lines (within my ability) around here 25 years ago. In know there are still lots of them that I haven't done but they tend to be more obscure, harder to get to, further away - all that stuff that goes against the convenience of sport.

One thing that was true for me and is slightly different then your assumption is that most of my early trad leading was with removable gear. Back in the day (my day = mid 70's) there actually was a lot of fixed gear here in the northeast - mostly pins. The cruxes of the majority of the routes in the Gunks and New Hampshire were usually done clip and go. The purists would stop and back things up sometimes. At the Gunks when John S and the Eastern Trade started to push for "the first clean ascents" we all paid our dues with opposed hexes etc. but usually not when we were at our limit. Of course John and Henry and Wunsch and Bragg could do that when it was at their limit - but that's why they are noteworthy (and I'm not). I'm rambling. I'm old - goes with the territory.


julio412


Feb 22, 2008, 9:09 AM
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I am 48,just shy of 49.
I pretty much just top rope dry toolright now;why cause living in Moscow,Russia does not afford many options and I do not and never have considered sportclimbing either sport or climbing.As my vacation time builds I plan trips to the Pyrenees to ice climb and the Andes for altitude.
I believe Dry tooling(on lead) epotomizes precision,grace and the Borg/Morph of Man and Machine.
I am glad that my 9 lives have allowed me to live so long and prosper.


Partner jammer


Feb 22, 2008, 9:39 AM
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Sport is only 20 minutes away, where trad is over 1 hour. I can also find more partners for sport then I could for trad, except for a few faithful friends. It all depends on how much time we have and the weather conditions. Plus ... it's a bit harder making the assent to the base of Cannon then Rumney. Yup, getting up there.


floridaputz


Feb 22, 2008, 10:06 AM
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That's a good question. I'm 48 but that's plenty old enough. I started climbing in 1976. Yes, climbing was climbing. We top roped or lead with traditional gear. At that time chalk and tape where considered lame. Then came the "fire" the first sticky rubber shoe. We all loved that. Then came "sport climbing" and the ethics debate. Now, anything goes. I find myself still trad climbing mostly, but I started "sport climbing and gym climbing" about 10 years ago. Now I actually go to sport destinations sometimes just to sport climb. I live in FLA so I have to train in the gym. But at the end of the day, to me it's still just climbing.


onceahardman


Feb 22, 2008, 10:08 AM
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Angry, none of your selections quite describe me. I learned traditionally, and grabbed the rack literally as soon as I learned to build a top-rope anchor. Second time out, I led 5.6 with no more than a six-piece rack. no wires, just old hexes and slung stoppers. I was a gymnast, and remember dynoing through the crux.

Now, I climb sport when at a sport area, and I enjoy it. I don't often go to sport areas, though. I prefer to travel to "backcountry" spots, and figuring things out for myself. I like climbing things that aren't in the guidebook when possible.

I climb maybe 1/2-1 full grade harder on sport, on average, but it depends on the line. If good pro is available from good stances, the numbers are about the same.


troutboy


Feb 22, 2008, 10:09 AM
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Well, I barely make your cutoff (50 in Sept), but I do remember climbing in Red River Gorge before there were bolts and you could camp on Half Moon Arch.

I still prefer trad because I enjoy placing gear and all it involves; however, I climb bolts about 20 % of my trips because I like to visit various venues, I can lead about 1.5 grades harder, and I sometimes like the social aspects of sport areas.

TS


Partner rgold


Feb 22, 2008, 10:11 AM
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At 64 I think I qualify for geezerdom. My climbing is 99% trad, but mostly that is because I live near the Gunks and good sport climbing is several hours away at Rumney. I'm dedicated enough to trad that I wouldn't make a long trip to sport climb (rather go to the daks, for example), but if there was good sport-climbing conveniently nearby, I'd be doing some of that too, more as a training activity rather than as a goal in itself.

Some of these discussions seem to hinge only on the bolts vs. removeable gear aspects of the two types of climbing, but the climbers from my generation got into climbing because they liked the mountain environment and wanted to be able to navigate it competently and safely, Personally, I've always thought of myself as a back-country rock-climber, with the surrounding natural scene, the length of the climbs and their remoteness, and the approaches and descents fundamental ingredients in the experience. Even when I go cragging I'm looking (lamentably often in vain) for a sense of remoteness and a connection with nature, and the what I have seen of the sport-climbing scene contains very little of these ingredients.

By the way, my memory of Gunks climbing in the seventies is very different from Olderic's; although there was more fixed protection around, there were also tons of climbs that had little or none, and by now cams have more than made up the difference in most cases.


moose_droppings


Feb 22, 2008, 10:12 AM
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All trad still. I have taken my nephews over to the sport areas a couple times, just to many people for me. Most of our (and my roped soloing) climbing is in the back country on new routes anymore. We can find more multipitch stuff there and enjoy the exploring and solitude as opposed to the roadside crags. Luckily my young (34) partner has leggs as strong as an ox and can haul a lot of gear a long ways. Some sporters lately have broken off the beaten path and developed some of the areas we've climbed for years. Their more interested in getting their name in some book than climbing. But we've got more and further back areas to go to, and sporters can only carry a rope and some draws so far ya know.
LaughLaughWink

old geezer edit:
I'll be 55 this fall.



(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Feb 22, 2008, 11:42 AM)


healyje


Feb 22, 2008, 10:57 AM
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All trad at 55 and I'm still doing some reasonably hard onsight, groundup, trundling-and-cleaning free on lead FA's here at Beacon and even been getting out on some new stuff with the old geezers and young bad boys down in Vegas. About 50% of my climbing is multipitch roped-soloing - up to easy 5.10 these days. I prefer free to aid climbing, but occasionally get out and do some of it.

When I reach for gear it's almost always nuts first, cams second in most cases. I rack on a Metolius 'Big Wall' gear sling and hate, no despise, having pro on my harness. My standard rack is old Wild Country rocks, HB Offsets, Metolius cams (tcu, quad, offset), a couple of big BD Camalots, and a few other odd small niggles. I mod my gear quite often and still free climb over Crack 'n Ups and Skyhooks slung specifically for that purpose as well as Lowe-Byrne Ballnuts (feel naked without those). And my basic approach to protection is to use gear, then fixed pins, and then bolts only as an absolute last resort.

I still wince hard at the very idea of chalk and only use it on incredibly hot days or on completely slimed up climbs. When I do use it I use the color matching stuff and very little of it at that.

My gear colors back when I used to mark my gear: yellow and red - to remind me cowardice and rage won't get you up a rock.

My current motto: if you can't climb hard, climb strange.

Overall, nothing much has changed about my climbing over thirty four years except the gear is better and I'm not - but, my eyes are as good as ever which is sometimes hard on me. I've also been walking tightrope (11mm, not slackline) for thirty two years. Overall, I'd say I'm average or light for my age group, certainly among a lot of peers I know - most climb harder and more than I. I plan on climbing this way until I can't anymore (you go RGold...!!!).


cologman


Feb 22, 2008, 11:32 AM
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Still have a rack of pins from my early years. Love getting up in the peaks and on big stuff. I like sport mostly because of the sheer volume of climbing I can accomplish in a given period. Just returned from 3 wks at El Potrero Chico so that about sums up my attitude towards sport. Should add that the month before I was in Mexico I was in Patagonia checking out next year's climbing destinations. Just to clarify 57 and 42 years of climbing.


(This post was edited by cologman on Feb 22, 2008, 11:34 AM)


dingus


Feb 22, 2008, 11:38 AM
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Started in 1973. I enjoy sport climbing. its what I did last time out. I enjoy trad climbing. Its what I did the prior time out. Haven't ice climbed in a while due to injury but I enjoy that too. Done aid, can't say I'm an aid junkie though. Peak baggin. Remote big walls. Bouldering. A few long trade routes in the valley.

Love it all. I've had to curtail the sort of climbing that includes significant risk of ground impact or leg wrenching falls. I'm probably done with bouldering for the most part as a result.

DMT


JohnCook


Feb 22, 2008, 8:11 PM
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58. Started in 1967, and lead on gear which would now make my hair curl (If it hadn't fallen out both hair and gear). I now climb in any style, but do feel sad when I find bolts next to cracks, and chalk on 5.5's.
First ice route was step cutting on what is now Scottish grade 3 (Anyone have a good conversion from Scottish to US winter grades?) Soon bought a curver axe.
Still use some of my 1960's nuts, but they are all regularly re-threaded. Still prefer passive gear but am starting to use cams more.
First contact with 'sport' was in France, where the Brits referrred to it as 'French Free' as most of the French seemed to use th bolts for a pull as well as protection. When I was in France 2 years ago they were still using this technique.
Things have changed, mostly for the better, especially the gear, but sometimes for the worse, with disrespect, unpleasantness and rudeness becoming more common.


miavzero


Feb 22, 2008, 9:40 PM
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trad, boulder, sport, ice.
in that order


jsrj98


Feb 23, 2008, 12:43 AM
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50. Began climbing in 1976. Like everyone else who started climbing in that era all I ever knew was Trad. Sure there were plenty of routes with mostly bolts for protection, but they were the exception in the places i climbed-- and of course they were placed on lead. I do mostly sport, bouldering and gym climbing now because it's more convenient. But my first love is and always will be multi-pitch trad. Frankly I like high places.

It's strange-- I train much more now than i ever did in the late 70's and early 80's, when mostly all I ever thought about was climbing. Back then it was just the door jam pullups. I guess if I'd used all the training gear in Camp 4 I'd been better, huh? :)

Some times I take out my old gear-- 1st generation hexes and stoppers, swami belts, etc-- and lay it next to the new gear and wonder, damn, how'd we do that! I've been thinking of taking my EB's to the gym or local crag and challenge these young studs to try them. And they were the best shoes you could get!!!


olderic


Feb 23, 2008, 9:14 AM
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rgold wrote:

By the way, my memory of Gunks climbing in the seventies is very different from Olderic's; although there was more fixed protection around, there were also tons of climbs that had little or none, and by now cams have more than made up the difference in most cases.

1976 - Retribution, Nose Dive,Co-Ex, Try Again, Birdie Party, Never-Neverland, Roseland, TRrans-Con,
and many more of the sought after test pieces pretty much sported fixed gear at the cruxes. Stannard was diligent in maintaining pins in many cases. The advent of cams made fixed gear less ential as you could quicklly and easily get good gear in horizontals.


Partner rgold


Feb 23, 2008, 9:55 AM
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olderic wrote:
Roseland, TRrans-Con,
and many more of the sought after test pieces pretty much sported fixed gear at the cruxes.


Hmm. Retribution had a ridiculous bent-over rusted soft iron piton no one would trust for anything. You had to place a nut. I don't remember anything in Nose Dive. Maybe a pin low down; nothing near the crux bulge. Trans Con had a pin protecting the hardest move, but there were plenty of other pretty hard moves that needed nuts. Try Again, Coexistence, Birdie Party, NN Land, and Roseland did indeed have fixed protection at the cruxes, and still do.

As for "many more of the sought-after test pieces," perhaps this is a matter of defining sought-after test pieces as the ones with fixed protection? Kliefield's Follies, The Fall, The Winter, No Man's Land, Erect Direction, Frustration Syndrome, Interstice, Mother's Day Party, Simple Suff, Welcome to the Gunks, Stirrup Trouble, P38, Tough Shift, Wegetables, Higher Stannard, Ant's Line, Bonnie's Roof, and Double Crack, to name a few, all had either no fixed protection or some vestigial fixed pins that were either worthless or not at any of the crux moves, and usually both. At least that's how I remember it, but I suppose there is room for quite divergent "memories" about these things.

Stannard did place some fixed pins. I don't think he maintained them in any sense, partially because the pins he made were incredibly durable and lasted years after he decamped to California. The majority, if not all, of those pins were placed on easy to moderate climbs, mostly at the very beginning of the "clean climbing" revolution when it still seemed important to end piton scarring caused by multiple placements and removals of chrome molly.


olderic


Feb 26, 2008, 2:24 PM
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rgold wrote:
olderic wrote:
Roseland, TRrans-Con,
and many more of the sought after test pieces pretty much sported fixed gear at the cruxes.


Hmm. Retribution had a ridiculous bent-over rusted soft iron piton no one would trust for anything. You had to place a nut. I don't remember anything in Nose Dive. Maybe a pin low down; nothing near the crux bulge. Trans Con had a pin protecting the hardest move, but there were plenty of other pretty hard moves that needed nuts. Try Again, Coexistence, Birdie Party, NN Land, and Roseland did indeed have fixed protection at the cruxes, and still do.

As for "many more of the sought-after test pieces," perhaps this is a matter of defining sought-after test pieces as the ones with fixed protection? Kliefield's Follies, The Fall, The Winter, No Man's Land, Erect Direction, Frustration Syndrome, Interstice, Mother's Day Party, Simple Suff, Welcome to the Gunks, Stirrup Trouble, P38, Tough Shift, Wegetables, Higher Stannard, Ant's Line, Bonnie's Roof, and Double Crack, to name a few, all had either no fixed protection or some vestigial fixed pins that were either worthless or not at any of the crux moves, and usually both. At least that's how I remember it, but I suppose there is room for quite divergent "memories" about these things.

Stannard did place some fixed pins. I don't think he maintained them in any sense, partially because the pins he made were incredibly durable and lasted years after he decamped to California. The majority, if not all, of those pins were placed on easy to moderate climbs, mostly at the very beginning of the "clean climbing" revolution when it still seemed important to end piton scarring caused by multiple placements and removals of chrome molly.

boy somebody is a crotchety old coot. Wink
My intent was not to get into a spraying contest about who has the most intimate memory of Gunks routes - although I do remember 3 decent pins within 10 feet of the crux on Retribution as well as P-38 (Shady Lady), Stirrup Trouble and Bonnie's Roof having quite a number of good pins.

Nor was my intent to argue about definitions of "sought after" and "test piece" although I don't think they are necessary correlated with difficulty - I would say that Horseman, Shockley's and High-E are the most sought after Gunks test pieces.

Nor was my point to argue about Stannard "maintaining things" I recall he encouraged placing fixed gear and usually had some pins availailbale to be used for such a purpose.

My point WAS to suggest that trad and sport climbing often are not all that different. I think the poll at the start of this thread sort of suggests that they are. Often times one can launch off of a challenging (to them) pitch at what is normally thought of as a bastion of a trad climbing area - and not have a concern about getting pro in at the crux - in other words with just a clip and go mentality like a sport climber would have.


s6141a


Mar 5, 2008, 5:15 AM
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Started in 1965; I'm 61. I climb all trad. I primarily do this because when I get away to alpine areas or Yosemite, my favorite climbs are all trad. and I need to keep in practice. I'm planning to take another trip into the Wind Rivers this August, ( Ambush Peak area), which is a favorite place for me. Need to get in shape!


curt


Mar 5, 2008, 9:16 PM
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angry wrote:
I realize all you who started prior to 1980 or earlier pretty much only climbed trad. In fact, there was no trad, only climbing, and it was largely protected by removable gear.

Now that there's options, I wonder where you've gone. I'd like to know what style the older generation is climbing on. Please don't just answer based on your opinion, answer based on what style you are actually getting miles on.

In the trivia and history section because you trivial old bastards are history!!!

52 years old now, and I'm basically a boulderer who gets occasionally distracted by a nice multi-pitch trad climb here or there.

Curt


potreroed


Mar 5, 2008, 10:00 PM
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Multi-pitch sport 8 months out of the year at El Potrero Chico--Trad at Devil's Lake and other Wisconsin crags the other 4 months. Up for bouldering any time.


healyje


Mar 6, 2008, 12:12 AM
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olderic wrote:
My point WAS to suggest that trad and sport climbing often are not all that different. I think the poll at the start of this thread sort of suggests that they are.

Hmm, I'd suggest that might well just be the case on the lines you tend to gravitate towards, because, except for the very occasional pin, that isn't my perception at all. And that was never my experience visiting the Gunks or other trad areas like Eldo, either.


areyoumydude


Mar 6, 2008, 8:05 AM
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Healyje, is supertrad. I was doing a 5 pitch route out at Beacon Rock last year and healyje was on our ass the whole time ropesoling.
Although we were being extra safe. cough.


sterlingjim


Mar 6, 2008, 8:26 AM
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Not quite to geezer-ville, by your definition but I did start climbing before 1980.

You left out the option of "do it all". I probably climb equal amounts in every mode except bouldering, which I reserve for training only.


healyje


Mar 6, 2008, 12:06 PM
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areyoumydude wrote:
Although we were being extra safe. cough.

Thank god you guys were there - I would of died if it hadn't been for your helpful safety checks...!

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