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agape
Mar 4, 2008, 7:27 PM
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I work at a summer staff and am in the process of building a climbing tower. I have climbed on and off for most of my life, but never actually built anything like this before. I guess my first question is in regards to the belay. Because we don't have enough staff to belay, and enough time to teach the campers how to do a standard belay, I have been trying to find some sort of alternative. Ideally, we would like the campers to run some sort of fool proof belay system, with staff supervision. It would be nice to eliminate the use of ATCs or any device such as that, but I am not sure how. At the moment we are considering the use of a steel pipe that the rope would rap around. Would that work? Also, could that be something that you put on the ground? So it would go from that belayer's hand, around the pipe at his feet, up to the biners at the top, and down to the climber. Would that work? Any other ideas that don't involve and automatic belay system?
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no_email_entered
Mar 4, 2008, 7:40 PM
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check out what many ropes course places use. a lot of time its a large 10" post sunk deep with rope pass holes threaded thru (like the letter s). plenty of friction so even if someone drops the rope the climber will just decend at a regular pace.
like dis:http://wolfadventures.org/...ndards/belaypost.htm
(This post was edited by no_email_entered on Mar 4, 2008, 7:55 PM)
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horribulas
Mar 4, 2008, 7:44 PM
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I saw one gym the used grigri's but attached them directly to an anchor to the ground so u didn't even have to clip into them. eliminates a few steps and allowed for a slightly safer climb for younger people. The way they had it the belayer sat on a bench behind the belay device and all they had to do was pull the rope through. They were giving a beginner lesson when i was there and the lesson was only 10 minutes long  . That might work for you
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vegastradguy
Mar 4, 2008, 7:44 PM
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no, you cannot create a foolproof belay without any device short of buying and maintaining the Autobelay system that indoor gyms use. (roughly $1500 each for the unit plus another $600 year in maintenance fees)
if you are going to build a climbing wall, then you need to have the proper staff and/or instruction to run it safely. if you cannot do this, then maybe a climbing wall is not a good option for your camp.
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shockabuku
Mar 4, 2008, 7:57 PM
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There was a recent thread about some newly installed auto or self belay device in a gym in Denver. Never did get a clarification of what it was. You might try asking the OP of that thread.
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horribulas
Mar 4, 2008, 8:10 PM
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couple more comments, what age are you looking at? I presume this climbing tower is part of a larger summer camp type thing, so if you talking about younger (grade 8 and below) i would be worried about letting them do anything with the ropes, so it might be worthwhile looking at investing in another instructor to run just the climbing wall. Also, youth volunteers (high school students) would be a good idea because it looks good on their resumes if they come to work for you guys for a week or two, and you don't have to pay them :D. If money is an issue (like why u can't buy automatic belay systems) why not try to make a smaller tower, but have a large bouldering area where the campers can boulder for most of the time and the limited number of staff could take each camper up once or twice
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shoo
Mar 4, 2008, 8:33 PM
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Consider purchasing a tower set up from a reputable company. It's probably more expensive, but the benefits include assurance of high quality systems, including an effective facility, maintenance, training, and program recommendations.
I ran a camp tower for 2 summers and have very positive things to say in general about Alpine Towers. I have linked to their website below.
http://www.alpinetowers.com
(This post was edited by shoo on Mar 4, 2008, 8:34 PM)
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dobson
Mar 4, 2008, 8:49 PM
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*don't take this post too seriously
I was messing around at my gym one day when I realized that a munter hitch around the top anchor, (6" steel pipe), would make for pretty foolproof belaying. Just keep tugging on the brake line.
Downsides are numerous, twisty ropes, premature wear, pain-in-the-ass belaying, and so on.
On a serious note, a round turn around the anchor will help add friction. With the added benefit of reducing the need for lighter belayers to back tie. Not fool proof, but it does add a safety margin.
Too much friction will make it nearly impossible to lower smaller climbers (very scary for them).
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treemonkey
Mar 4, 2008, 8:56 PM
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The pole with the S would work... just clip tree campers to it and have them walk backwards.
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gogounou
Mar 4, 2008, 9:04 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: no, you cannot create a foolproof belay without any device short of buying and maintaining the Autobelay system that indoor gyms use. (roughly $1500 each for the unit plus another $600 year in maintenance fees) if you are going to build a climbing wall, then you need to have the proper staff and/or instruction to run it safely. if you cannot do this, then maybe a climbing wall is not a good option for your camp.
Seconded.
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kyleshea
Mar 4, 2008, 9:08 PM
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agape wrote: I work at a summer staff and am in the process of building a climbing tower. I have climbed on and off for most of my life, but never actually built anything like this before. I guess my first question is in regards to the belay. Because we don't have enough staff to belay, and enough time to teach the campers how to do a standard belay, I have been trying to find some sort of alternative. Ideally, we would like the campers to run some sort of fool proof belay system, with staff supervision. It would be nice to eliminate the use of ATCs or any device such as that, but I am not sure how. At the moment we are considering the use of a steel pipe that the rope would rap around. Would that work? Also, could that be something that you put on the ground? So it would go from that belayer's hand, around the pipe at his feet, up to the biners at the top, and down to the climber. Would that work? Any other ideas that don't involve and automatic belay system?
will any company insure a home-built wall for a summer camp? might wanna find out first. those kids medical bills could be expensive.
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acorneau
Mar 4, 2008, 10:01 PM
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One method that has been used by the Boy Scouts is the idea of a belay team.
You have a primary belayer (using whatever device you choose) who is then backed up by a secondary belayer on the break-side of the rope. Next to the second is a "rope tender" that collects and feeds the rope to the second while keeping the rope out of the dirt.
If the primary freaks in a fall, the second should catch. If both the primary and secondary freak, the rope tender can catch. It's about as foolproof as you can get, within reason.
The additional benefit of this system is that it keeps 3 kids occupied instead of sitting around bored waiting for their turn to climb.
Good luck!
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buckyllama
Mar 4, 2008, 10:01 PM
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kyleshea wrote: will any company insure a home-built wall for a summer camp? might wanna find out first. those kids medical bills could be expensive.
I've been to a number (as an adult leader/volunteer) that do that have insurance, so the answer is yes. however they do have pretty strict, and sometimes nonsensical, practices regarding belaying.
I don't think there is a way around adult leadership. Older high school and college age kids may be able to make up the bulk of your "trained staff" for this. Some insurance companies require only employment, some require min 18 years, some require min 21, some 25 years. You'll need to negotiate.
For my own part, I've had good luck on informal trips with friends having the kids belay each other by having one person do the belaying and then a second or even third "help" by holding the tail of the rope. The theory being that it's unlikely for 3 people to totally flake out simultaneously.
Assuming you must have campers do the belaying the post idea has merit, if you can sell it to the insurance agent. Gri-gri's are also an option though I would position them such that the person doing the belaying isn't near the device so they can't "accidentally" hold down the lever. Then a more qualified person would have to come over to lower the climber. Put 3 kids on the tail of the rope and have them all take up slack with a gri gri and you'd have a system that is more fool proof than most adults. Better still, use a gri-gri and attach the tail of the rope to another camper's harness and rig it so that they take up slack just by walking backwards. You'd still need adults monitoring of course, but as long as they don't allow slack to develop, it's pretty good.
Of course the real problem with creating a completely fool proof system is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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ja1484
Mar 4, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Nothing is ever, foolproof. NOTHING. EVER.
Get that idea out of your head right now.
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deltav
Mar 5, 2008, 12:34 AM
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acorneau wrote: One method that has been used by the Boy Scouts is the idea of a belay team. You have a primary belayer (using whatever device you choose) who is then backed up by a secondary belayer on the break-side of the rope. Next to the second is a "rope tender" that collects and feeds the rope to the second while keeping the rope out of the dirt. If the primary freaks in a fall, the second should catch. If both the primary and secondary freak, the rope tender can catch. It's about as foolproof as you can get, within reason. The additional benefit of this system is that it keeps 3 kids occupied instead of sitting around bored waiting for their turn to climb. Good luck!
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pro_alien
Mar 5, 2008, 4:51 PM
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Remember, fools are ingenious...
Pre-rigged Grigris are close to foolproof for toprope belay, but lowering the climber is a different story.
A steel pipe at the top will introduce a bit of extra friction, often seen at gyms.
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