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beyond_gravity
Oct 26, 2002, 5:45 PM
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So, we can just work the trap line...thats all good untill we get to the last bolt. If we unclip the last bolt were going to swing out, and bring out belayer with us(!)
I guess the sensible thing to do would be to downclimb...but being lazy I dont want to do that.
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jt512
Oct 26, 2002, 5:57 PM
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Quote:If we unclip the last bolt were going to swing out, and bring out belayer with us.
Always unclip the "trap" draw before unclipping the last bolt. Next, unclip the rope side of the last draw. Last, unclip the bolt side of the last draw. This is the sequence you should always follow at the last bolt. It insures that you never pull the belayer with you when you swing.
If the swing from the last bolt would be dangerous, try to unclip the last bolt while still clipped into the next bolt up. Unclip this bolt last, which should give you a less radical swing.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-10-26 12:37 ]
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boulderingmadman
Oct 27, 2002, 2:34 PM
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as long as you unclip the trap FIRST, you should be fine. then theres no swing when you unclip the last draw. you can hang onto the draw or bolt while unclipping the trap then you wont have to worry about swinging away from the rock and not getting back in...
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roughster
Oct 27, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Easier way is to keep the 1st draw on and clipped, clean all draws to the anchor, lower down, then just boulder up and clean the 1st draw when done.
Rarely are 1st draws in such a bad place that with a spot you couldn't clean it. If it is, Just TR the 1st up in reverse, but also keep him on a good spot cause he will be in for a ride if he falls downclimbing
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addiroids
Oct 27, 2002, 3:14 PM
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Why don't you just belay the follower/cleaner up and rap from the top of the route?!?!
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
Never lower off the top of a route directly off the chains. Rap off. Lowering wears the rings/chains/shuts out.
[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-10-27 07:14 ]
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boulderingmadman
Oct 27, 2002, 3:32 PM
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[sarcastic]well, if they are sportclimbing enough to being stuff steep enough to need to know how to clean the draws, than it is an assumption that they KNOW to NEVER lower or TR through the anchors. it should ALWAYS be done through your own gear (ie, two extra quickdraws)[/sarcastic]
thanks for pointing out a very often overlooked yet necessary safety factor to sportclimbing...
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kalcario
Oct 28, 2002, 1:50 AM
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Never lower off the top of a route directly off the chains. Rap off. Lowering wears the rings/chains/shuts out.
Yes, rappelling does save wear and tear on the anchors, and probably on the rope as well. But whose life is more important, yours or the anchors? Some of the best climbers who ever lived have died rappelling. A few moments spent perusing Accidents in N.A. Mountaineering might lead you to believe that rappelling is more dangerous than climbing! Nobody has ever died due to anchors wearing out on a sport climb as far as I know. Look through John Long's "How to Sport Climb" series, and you will find detailed diagrams on how to untie, thread the anchor and LOWER OFF. Why don't these books tell you to rappell to save wear on the anchors? Because your life is worth more than the anchors. They will wear out regardless of whether people rap or not, and what's wrong with replacing them every few years anyway? I have spent 9 months total in my life sport climbing in France and Spain, where there are WAY more climbers at every level, NOBODY EVER raps to save the anchors! What happens to the rappelling climber who gets hit in the head and loses conciousness-he lets go of the rope and dies. In 27 years at the crags I have seen 5 dead bodies at the crags, 2 were rappelling and 3 were leader falls, NONE were from anchors wearing out!
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jt512
Oct 28, 2002, 3:54 AM
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It is safer to rappel off your typical sport climb than to lower. THINK PEOPLE! The rappelling accidents you hear about are almost always on trad routes. I have never seen or heard of a rappelling accident at a sport crag. I see or hear of multiple lowering accidents every year.
And for crying out loud, anywhere I've ever sport climbed it has been acceptable to lower directly off the anchors on the last run in the party. Yeah, it wears them out eventually. When they wear out, replace them.
-Jay
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kalcario
Oct 28, 2002, 7:02 AM
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It is safer to rappel off your typical sport climb than to lower. THINK PEOPLE! The rappelling accidents you hear about are almost always on trad routes. I have never seen or heard of a rappelling accident at a sport crag. I see or hear of multiple lowering accidents every year.
If rapping is safer than lowering off, surely the how-to books would advocate rapping instead of lowering, would'nt they? Or are John Long, Craig Luebben et al just wrong? And what difference does it make if you are sport or trad climbing, rappelling is rappelling. And maybe the reason you never hear about rappelling accidents at sport crags is because no one raps...because it makes more sense to just lower off? Yes people do get dropped by inexperienced belayers, so now you're gonna send that same gumbie belayer up there to set up a rappell? The bottom line is, lowering off is almost always safer than rapping, and I would like to have quoted to me one passage from an instructional manual that says otherwise.
And you need to think twice and get your facts straight before you set yourself up as a climbing safety expert. These are people's lives we're talking about here.
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jt512
Oct 28, 2002, 4:44 PM
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Quote:And what difference does it make if you are sport or trad climbing, rappelling is rappelling.
If you don't know the difference, then you obviously haven't done much of one or the other (or more likely, either one).
Let's see...
Typical sport route: one pitch, less than half a snigle rope length. There's no rappel knot to f--- up and you can ususally visually verify that both ends of the rope are down (and if they're not, 10 people at the base will yell up to you, if you can hear them above the barking dogs). The routes are usually steep enough so that your rope won't get stuck, and even if it does, you almost certainly could relead the pitch on another rope to retrieve it. There is virtually no chance that you will have to rap in poor weather, etc., etc., etc.
Typical trad route: Usually requires two ropes, so you have to tie a knot, which is one potential failure point. Your ropes can get stuck when you pull them, and if they do, you can get killed trying to retrieve them. You may have to rappel off slings or trad gear, which can fail. The rappel is likely to be multi-pitch, allowing the opportunity to rap off the end of the rope to your death. You may be rappelling in horrible weather, exhausted, or both. The list goes on.
Quote:
And maybe the reason you never hear about rappelling accidents at sport crags is because no one raps...because it makes more sense to just lower off?
People rap all the time at sport crags, which you would know if you actually sport climbed. The reason that lowering off the typical sport route is less safe than rappelling is that safe lowering is a coordinated effort between two people. People get hurt lowering because of miscommunication between partners. It happens all too frequently. Rappelling a single-pitch, half rope length sport route doesn't require you and your partner to have your s--- together as a team. That's why it is safer to rappel and that's why you rarely see rappelling accidents at sport crags.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-10-28 08:46 ]
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tigerbythetail
Oct 28, 2002, 9:16 PM
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Well, to answer the original question (it seems people have gotten side-tracked here)...if the route is super steep you lower down, cleaning what you can safely, then lower to the base. Pull the rope through, so you can toprope with the rope through the remaining draws and there you have it.
As for anchors - get a clue! Sport routes are all about convenience - clip and lower.
As Jay stated earlier, you clip your draws in and lower, then re-lead, TR or whatever and the last in your party lowers off the anchors.
If people are so concerned with anchors wearing out maybe they should pitch in some money to help re-equip the anchors with something industrial. Something that won't wear-out in a few seasons time. Rap all you want, but if it's sport climbing I'm lowering.
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bighigaz
Oct 28, 2002, 9:43 PM
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That last bolt can definately be the trickiest, so just don't take it out! Lower yourself to the ground, then look around for Amy, or the nearest 98 pound climber chick, and you get one foot while your partner gets the other. She'll be able to reach it, and you won't even break a sweat!
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boulderingmadman
Oct 28, 2002, 10:34 PM
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ok, time for a little calarification--
the FACT of the situation is that lowering directly through the anchors can, does, and WILL wear out the anchors WAY FASTER than if you clip your own gear. SO if you are the ONLY person climbing the route, lower through the anchors(duh!) IF there are people who are going to be toproping the climb behind you, it is IMPERATIVE that you clip into the anchors with your OWN quickdraws to prevent any UNNECESSARY wear on the anchors. PERIOD!!!
i climb regularly in two extremely popular sport climbing areas. every 2-3 years we DO replace anchors. every time we replace anchors, we come across one or two, or more that are SO WORN THROUGH that if you hold a match to it, it will melt. were talking 1 inch round anchors worn through to less than an 1/8 of an inch metal left. you gonna lower off that??? than youre an idiot...
and to the guy from europe who is so hell bent on lowering because there are "way more climbers of all abilities in france and europe"...youre an idiot. the amount of climbers is regardless of the facts. sheer numbers mean nothing. if every time a climb was toproped it was done through quickdraws rather than the anchors, you would see little to no wear on the anchors. only the necessary required when a leader lowers and no one goes next. it ONLY makes sense to TR and climb/lower several climbers from the same route through your own gear. dangers of rappelling?? try alpine and mountaineering dangers....all it takes is a quick prussik to prevent any danger youve described...and for the record...arent the euro crags where they still use 1/4 inch bolts and call it safe??? i guess that lets us all in on your "safety habits" in europe
disclaimer: my above post was not intended to insult european climbers in general. it was only intended to point to discrepencies and idiocy in the post of ONE euro-tard
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daftdog
Oct 28, 2002, 11:13 PM
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One easy way to clean the last draw: Go strait into the 2nd last draw (clip a draw from your harness to the strait gate 'biner on the bolt.) Unclip the rope from the bent gate. Reach down & unclip the first draw (from the rope, than from the bolt.) Now you can get balanced and unclip the draw you are strait to.
Rap at a sport climbing area, your crazy!
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beyond_gravity
Oct 29, 2002, 2:41 AM
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Bolt's should be replaced on popular climbs about every 5-10 years, regardless if they are worn to nill. am I not correct?
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tigerbythetail
Oct 29, 2002, 2:45 AM
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"i climb regularly in two extremely popular sport climbing areas."
Owens and Clark Canyon no doubt.
"every 2-3 years we DO replace anchors."
Well if you guys replaced the anchors with some real equipment instead of those cheap-ass soft metal cold shuts or those fixe rigs your anchors might actually last a while. The convenience of open shuts at Owens is one reason the area is so popular as well as huge factor in them wearing out. Maybe you should clue someone in and tell them there is higher grade metals available, even for cold shuts.
"every time we replace anchors, we come across one or two, or more that are SO WORN THROUGH that if you hold a match to it, it will melt. were talking 1 inch round anchors worn through to less than an 1/8 of an inch metal left. you gonna lower off that??? than youre an idiot..."
Well if you rap off an anchor with that little metal then you're the idiot. I've climbed at Owens and seen routes with the shuts so worn I refused to even bother with them - so I down-led the route.
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kalcario
Oct 29, 2002, 3:22 AM
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So is leading, and if you can' trust em' to lower you, then they damn sure should'nt be belaying you. I keep a hand on the trapline for the first 20' of the lower even if I do trust em'...
Me and my partner always have it together.
Just got back from 8 days at the Red-third trip this year. Spent July-August 2002 and Dec-Jan 2000-01 in Spain, 4th and 5th climbing trip to Europe since 1990. Climbed at Owens for years before there was water down there. And I've *forgotten* more trad climbing than you'll ever do. Trust me-rapping off sport climbs is a peculiarly American aberration, like shitty beer or conservative republicanism. You rarely hear of rapping accidents at sport crags because only a few dunderheads actually do it. If everybody started rapping instead of lowering, the fatality rate would increase tenfold.
And again, if rapping really were safer than lowering, then the "How to Sport Climb" books would tell you to rap, not lower. So who's wrong, you or Largo?
ps we know each other
[ This Message was edited by: kalcario on 2002-10-28 19:25 ]
[ This Message was edited by: kalcario on 2002-10-28 20:03 ]
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kalcario
Oct 29, 2002, 3:59 AM
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You guys must top rope a lot, all those scary 8 foot runouts at Owens, I guess...I was talking about lowering vs rapping not top roping and yes, you set up tr's with your own draws on the anchors.
Agreed.
Backing up a rappell with a prusik might create more problems than it solves if the rappeller loses conciousness due to rockfall, medical problems etc. Ever climb with a diabetic? Hanging unconcious upsidedown from a prusik 50' off the deck is usually considered poor form...
Quarter inch bolts at Ceuse, for instance? Theye'd pull out pretty quick, pal. Apparently you've never been to a modern Euro sport crag; you could train for it, though, by clipping every third or fourth bolt at Owens...
[disclaimer: my above post was not intended to insult european climbers in general. it was only intended to point to discrepencies and idiocy in the post of ONE euro-tard]
California born and bred, babe. Just better traveled than most, I guess. And don't sweat the slander-the Euros already hate you WAY more than you hate them...
[ This Message was edited by: kalcario on 2002-10-28 20:07 ]
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boulderingmadman
Oct 29, 2002, 9:22 PM
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tigerbythetail--
yup, clarks and the owens. and youre right...i DONT lower OR rap off the anchors that are worn. and youre right again, the next retro-equipping expedition is to be done using tow-chains and "lobster claws", such as the new anchors put in on many of the more popular gorge climbs...
were not idiots out here. since youre familiar with the areas, ill assume youve climbed there. most of the soft-metal cold shuts in clarks are going to be switched out for a heftier anchor. the fact is, most of the bolting and route-establishing for clarks was, ubnfortunately, done by a handfull of people...and they all used the same POS anchor. so, i agree with you. changes need to be made, and they will.
but it DOESNT belie the FACT that multiple people climbing on the same route through a TR situation should be done through your own draws clipped into the anchors rather than directly through the anchors....it is the proper way to do it, and the last person climbing should clean the anchors...
kalcario--just for the record, i HATE the owens river gorge. never have i climbed so many of the EXACT same routes before...and i never argued for the "rappel at a sport crag" deal. i simply put in my $.02 about how anchors should be treated. and no, ive never climbed overseas...i was just trying to get your goat...worked, didnt it? (ps--california born and bred? where i learned to climb, bolts are taboo and quickdraws are fancy keychains...)
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2002-10-29 13:27 ]
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jt512
Oct 30, 2002, 12:24 AM
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OK, Joe, well I just figured out from your e-mail address who you are. Forget what the Euros do or don't do. Just look locally. I can think of 4 lowering accidents at Williamson and NJC in the past two seasons right off the top of my head. I don't know of a single rap accident. And you know people rap at those areas. Each of those accidents was caused by miscommunication, an element that is not a factor in rappelling. If you look at the factors that go into rappelling accidents -- messed up knots, stuck ropes, rapping off the ends, etc. -- you'll see that these factors do not come into play much in sport climbing.
Quote:
...if rapping really were safer than lowering, then the "How to Sport Climb" books would tell you to rap, not lower.
Quote the passage from the book where John says not to rap. IIRC he goes out of his way to explain the dangers of lowering.
Quote:
So who's wrong, you or Largo?
First let's establish that John and I actually disagree by you quoting the phrase (cite the page number, too, so I can check it, please) where John recommends lowering over rapping because it is safer (not more convenient). Then if we actually disagree (which I doubt), Largo will be wrong.
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ps we know each other
If you mean that you and I know each other, you're right. If you mean that you and John Long know each other, who cares?
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-10-29 18:52 ]
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addiroids
Oct 30, 2002, 12:37 AM
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Gee, you sport climbers sure have it together don't you?
And we do hate Euros more than they hate us.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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kalcario
Oct 30, 2002, 2:04 AM
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First let's establish that John and I actually disagree by you quoting the phrase (cite the page number, too, so I can check it, please) where John recommends lowering over rapping because it is safer (not more convenient). Then if we actually disagree (which I doubt), Largo will be wrong.
What I said was that if rapping really was safer, you *would* be instructed to rappell not lower, I doubt there is any discussion on the subject in the book, which would only back up my argument further, i.e. lowering is so obviously safer that it does'nt merit dicussion. See you at the sand dune...er, Echo this weekend?
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jt512
Oct 30, 2002, 3:12 AM
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Quote:What I said was that if rapping really was safer, you *would* be instructed to rappell not lower...
That's an assumption. Lowering is an accepted practice, but also a source of many accidents. Long explains how to minimize the risk.
Quote:
...lowering is so obviously safer that it does'nt merit dicussion.
Stating that it is obvious, doesn't make it so. I've already written why I think that lowering is more dangerous. Can you explain why rappeling would be more dangerous? As I said above, when you start to analyze the causes of rappelling accidents, you find that they are aspects of rappelling that are not usually present in sport climbing.
Quote:
See you at the sand dune...er, Echo this weekend?
No, I'm taking one of my rare breaks from SoCal choss this weekend. Gonna climb on some decent rock for a change.
-Jay
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chadplusplus
Oct 30, 2002, 3:40 AM
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Jesus! Who left in the rec.climbing-ers?
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jt512
Oct 30, 2002, 8:55 PM
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Don't knock wreck.climbers. If there were more of here, there's be a lot fewer Death Trap Threads.
-Jay
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