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on_sight_man
May 26, 2004, 12:41 PM
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So there are two things. First the bolt on the hanger and the hanger-side draw. Second the rope and the rope-side draw. Since bolts are not put in with this in mind all the time (barely ever I would think actually), there are times when it needs to be one way and times the other. I've been told recently that actually it's best to have a mix so you can pick the right draw for the clip.
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dc
May 26, 2004, 12:45 PM
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personal preference... and what everyone else has said...
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andyw
Jun 2, 2004, 6:08 AM
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just dont back clip, the opposing gate thing is good too.
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omenbringer
Oct 8, 2004, 4:04 PM
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In reply to: So there are two things. First the bolt on the hanger and the hanger-side draw. Second the rope and the rope-side draw. Since bolts are not put in with this in mind all the time (barely ever I would think actually), there are times when it needs to be one way and times the other. I've been told recently that actually it's best to have a mix so you can pick the right draw for the clip. |
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davidji
Oct 8, 2004, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: This is how I carry my QD's, half are opposite and half are the same. That way I can always place the bolt end so the spine is toward the bolt and the rope end so it is opposite the direction of travel. I rack the QD's the same way everytime, opposites on the left hip, sames on the right, it works for me!
Are there exceptions? Probably. If you had to move to the right when above the bolt, but then go left again, you might want the rope side facing left, but could still rotate the QD up & right. Givin the unlikelyhood of self-unclipping anyway, and the fact that having the biners facing the same way solves the vast majority of such cases, it seems like the better way to me.
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pentapitch
Nov 5, 2004, 2:25 PM
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one thing no has mentioned is that if your gates face the same way, it is much, much easier for the second to clean the draws. give a try and see. as for multipitching, it saves time and energy and the rack is easier to clean up and organize for the next pitch.
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gunkyjon
Nov 5, 2004, 9:52 PM
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In my opinion it doesnt really matter its all in how you clip the rope
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ron_burgandy
Dec 7, 2004, 8:17 PM
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I have all of my draws set up with opposing gates- for me it is easier to remember to clip with the gate (bolt end) facing which way i want to go- other wise it is personal preference. it can get confusing if you have a mixture though. if you are in a precarious clip stance and you have to switch the orientation of your draw you end up wasting energy or falling because of it.
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USnavy
Feb 26, 2008, 6:55 AM
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winglessangel
Feb 26, 2008, 1:18 PM
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I use them both facing the same way cause of the rotation issue.
And this seems to be 'standard' around here, most climbers I know do that.
Now, I'm not sure I understand that:
sarcat wrote: ... make sure that as you climb the TOP biner gate does not 'rest' in the bolt. You want the spine in the bolt....
thanks
(This post was edited by winglessangel on Feb 26, 2008, 1:28 PM)
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shockabuku
Feb 26, 2008, 2:01 PM
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[quote "beesty511"]Because of the bolt head protruding out of the hanger. The protruding bolt head is on one side of the hanger, and if the gate of the top biner of the draw is on the same side as the bolt, as the climber moves upward, the rope can rotate the draw around the hanger until the gate of the top biner presses on the head of the bolt, and the draw can potentially unclip.[/quote]
This one's got it right.
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shockabuku
Feb 26, 2008, 2:03 PM
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epoch wrote: USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally. Really? Could you show me where you've seen this? Cause I'm calling BS on this statement.
Which statement are you looking for proof of: the one claiming that having a gate on both of your biners is the safest option (which is pretty damn obvious), or the claim(s) about manufacturers?
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sky7high
Feb 26, 2008, 2:55 PM
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Well, a friend of mine has been climbing on draws with opposing biners for many many years, and he's never experienced the gate unclipping that has been mentioned. Not to say it's impossible, just very unlikely and probably far from "deadly". Personally, I climb with biners facing the same way.
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microbarn
Feb 26, 2008, 3:08 PM
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USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally.
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murph24
Mar 20, 2008, 1:44 AM
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USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally.
The draws shown on DMM's site are all opposing
http://www.dmmclimbing.com/...=2&page=Products
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yokese
Mar 20, 2008, 2:19 AM
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murph24 wrote: USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally. The draws shown on DMM's site are all opposing http://www.dmmclimbing.com/...=2&page=Products
Very true. Moreover, their model "mamba" can't be reoriented.
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therat
Mar 20, 2008, 2:31 AM
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USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally.
What manufacturers DO say is to trust your belay loop as a single attachment point for rappeling... just as Todd Skinner did... even though this method creates no "redundence". The whole "triaxial loading" theory seems to outweigh the safety of multiple attachment points. (They want to cover their ass as best as possible...)
Regarding this thread, it's always been my practice to apply logical thought to each placement individually.
Example: Crack climbing... fairly "deep" placement in a crack that is "offset out" on the left side, and the route direction obviously moves right. The gate on the ROPE side of the draw should face left... however if the gate on the PROTECTION side faces left, there is quite a bit of potential for the 'biner to "bounce" against the rock during movement and open. Therefore, in this situation, I would have my gates opposed.
(This post was edited by therat on Mar 20, 2008, 2:39 AM)
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jakedatc
Mar 20, 2008, 3:13 AM
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therat wrote: What manufacturers DO say is to trust your belay loop as a single attachment point for rappeling... just as Todd Skinner did... even though this method creates no "redundence". The whole "triaxial loading" theory seems to outweigh the safety of multiple attachment points. (They want to cover their ass as best as possible...) .
that's a piss poor argument .. the manufacturers also say to check your gear regularly for wear and replace it. which he did... then ignored the signs and kept wearing it.
your rope is a single attachment also your belay biner and device. like your belay loop it should not take that much force and are overbuilt for their job if used correctly.
I keep my draws all the same and switch them if there is something that might interfere with either of the gates or use a longer draw or a locker on the bolt if it is placed poorly.
I wouldn't take how they are pictured in the catalog to mean jack shit.. i'd guess that it's the way the photog wanted them so they looked better.
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jt512
Mar 20, 2008, 5:09 AM
Post #46 of 56
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USnavy wrote: Having both gates is the safest option. You won’t find a single manufacturer that will say opposing gates is safer. However you will find plenty saying gates on the same side is safer. I keep my gates on the same side personally.
Hey, thanks for resurrecting a 4-year-old thread in order to interject the wisdom you have gleaned from your nearly 1 year of climbing.
Jay
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linvillelover
Mar 20, 2008, 4:31 PM
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i have many times looked down and seen the draw below me rotated to where the wiregate was resting in the bolt. thats not fun.
ideally, you want the gate facing out and away from the bolt , which is determined by the travel. Just like the rope end biner, you want it Not backclipped and also correctly oriented for the way which you intend to travel.
now does this means the same way or opposite? i think it depends on the bolt and the route.
mine are all opposed.
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jt512
Mar 20, 2008, 4:39 PM
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linvillelover wrote: i have many times looked down and seen the draw below me rotated to where the wiregate was resting in the bolt. thats not fun. ideally, you want the gate facing out and away from the bolt , which is determined by the travel. Just like the rope end biner, you want it Not backclipped and also correctly oriented for the way which you intend to travel. now does this means the same way or opposite? i think it depends on the bolt and the route. mine are all opposed.
The first bolded statement is a result of the second bolded statement.
Jay
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wenclg1
Mar 20, 2008, 4:54 PM
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Not for sure if this will do anythign for the thread, but here you go.
"We orient our carabiners on all our standard quickdraws with the gates facing opposite each other. We feel that this is the safestmethod to minimize the possibility of simultaneously loading both carabiners in a gate-open position while leading routes which may wander above and to the left or right of your last placement. Under certain circumstances, it is possible for both gates to open during a fall as the ‘draw is scraped along the rock while it orients iteself below the point of protection. By opposing the carabiners on a draw, we reduce the possibility of simultaneous gate-opening in this manner."
http://www.omegapac.com/op_products_climbingquickdraws2.html
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altelis
Mar 20, 2008, 4:57 PM
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I think you would be foolish to make all your draws oriented the same way.
there are rarely situations in climbing in which you need to consider only a single variable when make a decision. Gate orientation is definitely an area when there are multiple variables to be considered.
For example, we should first consider the bottom gate. Generally it should point opposite expected direction of travel so that rope drag pulls the gate out and away from the rock, minimizing the chance that it will be pulled into a nubbin which may force the gate open. However, some placement situations dictate this orientation is in fact not preferred.
This means that the direction of the bottom gate is a variable and not a constant.
Next we want to consider the top gate in relation to direction of travel/bolt head. Generally this means we want the gate facing the opposite direction of the bolt head. There are however instances when this is less than ideal, like if there is a bulge on that side that immediately puts an opening force on the gate simply with the weight of the draw. so in this case we want the gate facing toward the bolt head..
This means that the direction of the gate of the top biner is also a variable and not a constant.
Therefore we can imagine instances when we want both the top and bottom biner facing the same direction and when they will face opposite directions. Therefore is seems silly to me to have all your draws facing the same way. Climbing is not this monotonous-if it were i probably wouldn't enjoy it as much. Most of my draws are oriented opposite because my experience has shown me this is the orientation I use most often. However some of my draws are oriented in the same direction because, well, sometimes this is what the situation dictates is best.
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