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wes_allen


Apr 13, 2008, 6:14 AM
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Photography Links!
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Hey, thought it might be a good idea to have an ongoing link thread, just a place to add a cool link to share, etc.

Here are a couple photographers I really like:

http://edpingol.blogspot.com

http://www.tricoastphoto.com

http://www.timtadder.com/index3.html

Online photo forums:
Not a big fan of dpreview, the content tends to just give me a headache, but this site seems to have a much better content to bs ratio:
http://www.fredmiranda.com

If you want to know more about flash, check this site out:
http://planetneil.com/...otography-techniques


kriso9tails


Apr 13, 2008, 11:53 AM
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Re: [wes_allen] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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Well, a couple of Photoshop links:

Photoshop User TV:

These guys aren't super polished as hosts, which I think is what I actually like about the show, but every week I see something that is either new to me, or something I have forgotten or just not used in a while.


Adobe TV:

Requires the latest version of flash. Has some great content, but for some reason I don't check it out so much.

The next three are associations you have to pay for, but they all offer discounts that can more than offset membership costs if you have some bigger purchases to make. They all also have content, perks and communities, which is what you're really paying for.

NAPP: National Association of Photoshop Professionals

CAPIC: The Canadian Association of Photographers and Illustrators in Communications

PPA:Professional Photographers of America


All of them make it sound like you need to be a pro to join, but that's not really true. Right now I'm only a member of NAPP because I want to focus more on digital editing this year, and it it definitely open to the amateur. It's been a while since I was a member of CAPIC and being Canadian I doubt I'll ever be a member of PPA, but all of these associations, if you check them often enough, will give you chances to connect with other photographers and, as I mentioned, get you discounts on Software, plugins, computers, car rentals, camera gear... etc.


(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Apr 13, 2008, 11:55 AM)


maldaly


Apr 13, 2008, 12:18 PM
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Re: [wes_allen] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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Here are my favorites.

www,kenrockwell.com - lots of well grounded advice but he pisses off the pros.

www.strobist.com - All things wireless flash.

www.daveblackphotography.com - Another pne with tons fr great info on how to make photos.

www.dg28.com - Lots and lots of good articles on how to make great photos.

maldaly
www.ranchexitphoto.com


pico23


Apr 13, 2008, 6:17 PM
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wes_allen wrote:
Hey, thought it might be a good idea to have an ongoing link thread, just a place to add a cool link to share, etc.

One of the most influetial people in my photography, and wilderness ethics, and a fellow Razorback (and a nice guy)...

http://www.timernst.com/


Largest cyber photo community on the web

http://www.photo.net

most social photo community on the web

http://www.flickr.com

Photoflow Links with flickr for really time chat. You browse streams and people see, they can browse your streams, and it's great for REAL TIME critiqueing. Actually it's kinda fun for that, although people always pick your best shots then say how much they like them and come up with the most rediculuous improvements. As opposed to picking a mediocre shot and really giving some constructive advice.

http://www.photoflow.com

The Mountain World, title sums it up

http://mountainworld.typepad.com/mountainworld/

OK1000.. General Pentax Blog

http://www.ok1000pentax.com/

Mark Roberts Photography...A lot of photostuff from a nature/adventure photographer but also one of the most comprehensive private Pentax archives on the web. Lots of good historical info, manuals, and photo tips.

http://www.robertstech.com/

Mike Johnsons Blog. This is one of the most straight forward blogs on the web. Just how it is, no brand pandering, no loyalties, etc.

http://www.theonlinephotographer.com/

Luminious landscape...another favorite for information by photographers for photographers, not just a magazine spec sheet in digital form.

http://luminous-landscape.com/

Dave Black Photography...by far one of the best sports photographers on the planet, a genius with artificial lighting.

http://www.daveblackphotography.com/


David Burnnett...Hey, he shoots Canon, and I like him!! Must be a damn fine photographer...oh, and he still shoots film, and all sorts of weird formats. Very interesting guy.

http://www.davidburnett.com/


(This post was edited by pico23 on Apr 13, 2008, 6:18 PM)


guangzhou


Apr 16, 2008, 8:49 PM
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Re: [pico23] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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Outdoor Eyes has some nice people willing to share and give advice.

Some of the articles in their news letters are also worth reading for those just getting started in outdoor photography. Slanted toward people who want to turn photography into a business but don't have the nerve to go all out.

http://www.outdooreyes.com/phpBB2/index.php

Luminous Landscape. I love this site. For awhile it was my homepage. A little hard to find what you want, but a ton of great info and nice images too.

This year they also introduced an endowment for unknown photographers to fund a photography project.

The site sell DVD, but worth reading. Love them and visit a couple times a month.

http://luminous-landscape.com/

Alamy. This is a stock photography website that sell images. If you want to sell Rights Managed images, they are a good place to get started. make sure you know what you're doing before you try them out.

http://www.alamy.com/...hotography-guide.asp

Of course, I can't go any further without mentioning Shutter stock. These guys sell images as royalty free and pay you. Yes, the pay is small, but the sells add up. It's paying my rip to Lake tahoe in June, and when you consider I live in Indonesia, it says something.

Even if you don't want to sell images with them, their forums are oacked full of info and people willing to give you honest, precise, and good answsers.

http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=8929

One site not mentioned is Simon Carter's website. I love his photos and you can't go wrong by visiting his site. His images are "Eye Candy."

http://www.onsight.com.au/

Cheers
Eman


melekzek


Apr 16, 2008, 9:15 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Of course, I can't go any further without mentioning Shutter stock. These guys sell images as royalty free and pay you. Yes, the pay is small, but the sells add up. It's paying my rip to Lake tahoe in June, and when you consider I live in Indonesia, it says something.

Even if you don't want to sell images with them, their forums are oacked full of info and people willing to give you honest, precise, and good answsers.

http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=XXXX

But I should warn you. It is a hard work. You have watch for every opportunity to spam the forums !


guangzhou


Apr 16, 2008, 9:26 PM
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Re: [melekzek] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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Love you Mel.

Anyways, missed on link with nice images.

http://www.nathanweltonphoto.com/images.html


pico23


Apr 17, 2008, 12:08 AM
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Re: [melekzek] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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melekzek wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Of course, I can't go any further without mentioning Shutter stock. These guys sell images as royalty free and pay you. Yes, the pay is small, but the sells add up. It's paying my rip to Lake tahoe in June, and when you consider I live in Indonesia, it says something.

Even if you don't want to sell images with them, their forums are oacked full of info and people willing to give you honest, precise, and good answsers.

http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=XXXX

But I should warn you. It is a hard work. You have watch for every opportunity to spam the forums !

This guy hardly ever post but he seeks out your pandering ways with that shutterstock ref. I love it.

Seriously, though I gotta agree. One thing to put the shutter stock url on there but to add your referal is just not right.

If someone wants to toss you a bone thats cool with me. I mean a bunch of us Pentax people passed around the 5/10$ savings on smugmug pro accounts as a courtesy to ourselves, but it was consensual. you know like hiring a hooker.

Your reference is like date rape..."her eyes said yes, but her stinking vaginal orifice was speechless till i pried it open and stuffed a tube sock in it!!!"


(This post was edited by pico23 on Apr 17, 2008, 12:13 AM)


guangzhou


Apr 17, 2008, 5:09 AM
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Picos, congrats on the new car. Hope you enjoy the new ride.

Not sure I understand the date rape reference. I can't think of a single act that is more grotesque than rape, not even murder. Child molestation fall in the rape category as far as I concern.

While I knew both You and Mel would say something about the ref link, I never thought would say something so offensive. Rape isn't a joke, not in my world at least.

If you don't like that I sell my images on the micros, deal with it, it's my photos. I make enough on the micro to finance both my photography and my climbing trips. People know how to read, if they want to sign up, it's there business not yours. The micros has also paid for about 400 sport routes I put up across Asia in the couple years.

As for you comment on hardly posting, I suggest you look into who provides most of the info on climbing in Japan or China on this site. You might be surprised to learn at how many people have find climbing area in either of those location, and partners, because of post and PM from me.

Regardless, rape isn't something to joke about. It's one of the few things I think deserves the death sentence. Your comment reduce it to nothing more than a joke.

Eman

(This post was edited by guangzhou on Apr 17, 2008, 5:29 AM)


pico23


Apr 17, 2008, 11:11 AM
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Actually, my fault I wasn't clear in my wording/grammar.

I was referring to Melezek not posting much.

I personally don't have a problem with it in the signature...i do think it was inappropriate to put in a list of links.

as far as the date rape, it's why i love south park because we've become waaaaaay tooooooo politically correct in this country. Everything we say needs to be measured so we don't offend anyone. Good golly what if we do offend someone???

You know once I replied to an email from my sister about how NOW - Sexapalooza that she was hosting on campus. Basically it was a sex toy sale funded by the student body. The Sex toy/Sex ed show was actually called "Condoms, Cookies and Cupcakes". Well, I didn't realize that the NOW state leader for Virginia was on the list (thought it was all friends and family), and I happened to mention the best form of birth control was the "second step method", "you know where you get on the second step and kick the biotch in the stomach!!" Gotta love it. Well she had to explain that I either have tourettes (ooops. just made fun of tourrettes) or that I was slightly retarded. Oddly everyone actually found it hilarious when they viewed it in the context it was meant, A FREAKING JOKE!!

Lighten up about the date rape. what i said was a joke.

Pumped about the new ride, should be perfect for my uses, can't wait to test it out on some windy crooked mountain roads this weekend, and on some dirt logging roads. Car shopping is the worst experience in the world and it killed 2 weekends but at least it's done.


guangzhou


Apr 17, 2008, 5:29 PM
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Pico,

I do think the United States has gotten too politically correct with it's speech in general. I live overseas, and I often get to climb with Brits, and they are a little so and much more fun to joke with. While I love climbing in the USA, I sometime think, and the climbers I meet, I have a hard time relating to many of the Americans I meet when I am in the states.

On the rape issue, I may have overacted. If you ever met me in person, or met people who spent any amount of time with me, you'd know that I joke about almost everything. In many cases, people don't know if I'm serious or not. I rarely am.

I still stand by my statement, rape is one area I ever joke about. If I ever have the pleasure of interrupting a rape, I might have to go to court to defend myself for murder.


As for my referral link pooping up; everytime I post it, someone PM's me with questions. Most are positive, but I do get the occasional "down fall of the industry speech." I take it all in stride. When I post it, I eagerly wait for you and Mel to comment on it. I try to guess what either of you will say.

Of 127 referrals who signed up using my link, two have been accepted. I guess the standards are high and getting higher. I know three or four people who are now teaching classes on shooting for Micro stock specifically and are doing quite well at it financially. For me, it's asmall part of my photography revenue. Three more years and I am taking a year of of teaching for an around the world climbing/photography trip. No camping either.

One of the people who was accepted is Indonesian. I help that one shoot specifically for the task, process the images in what I think was acceptable, and then helped keyword everything. That person was making $150 a month working for company in Indonesia with a college degree. I think the micros might help and I'll help that one get into Alamy too.

Glad you enjoy your new car. I hope we meet face to face one day. Who knows, maybe we already have. If not, maybe we have friends in common.

Wish I were climbing this weekend, but I have a swim team to take to Bali for a swim meet. Finally got my Big Wall team together for July. We'll get on new Wall up for sure, maybe two, and I am hoping for three. 600 meters of untouched rock with a giant ledge at the 200 meter mark. Can't wait.

Cheers
Eman


guangzhou


Apr 17, 2008, 6:05 PM
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pico23 wrote:
melekzek wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Of course, I can't go any further without mentioning Shutter stock. These guys sell images as royalty free and pay you. Yes, the pay is small, but the sells add up. It's paying my rip to Lake tahoe in June, and when you consider I live in Indonesia, it says something.

Even if you don't want to sell images with them, their forums are oacked full of info and people willing to give you honest, precise, and good answsers.

http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=XXXX

But I should warn you. It is a hard work. You have watch for every opportunity to spam the forums !

This guy hardly ever post but he seeks out your pandering ways with that shutterstock ref. I love it.

Seriously, though I gotta agree. One thing to put the shutter stock url on there but to add your referal is just not right.

If someone wants to toss you a bone thats cool with me. I mean a bunch of us Pentax people passed around the 5/10$ savings on smugmug pro accounts as a courtesy to ourselves, but it was consensual. you know like hiring a hooker.

Your reference is like date rape..."her eyes said yes, but her stinking vaginal orifice was speechless till i pried it open and stuffed a tube sock in it!!!"

I do miss my Pentax K1000. Slides, the good old days.


deepplaymedia


Apr 28, 2008, 3:52 AM
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Travel & Outdoor Photographers Alliance - http://www.t-o-p-a.com/
"TOPA is an online professional photography group geared toward travel, outdoor, and adventure photographers. Our email forum deals specifically with the business issues of our profession, including contracts, copyright, pricing, negotiation, and marketing for both assignment and stock photography. An offshoot of the Editorial Photographers (EP) group, we are founded on the principle of peer mentorship and education for the purpose of building a sustainable freelance photography business environment."

D65 - http://www.d-65.com/
Workflow seminars, documents & consultation. Very valuable!!

Photographers
Corey Rich - http://www.coreyrich.com/
Simon Carter - http://www.onsight.com.au/ (check out his news blog :)
Galen Rowell's work - http://www.mountainlight.com/
Bill Hatcher - http://www.billhatcher.com
& (of course :P) Josh Caple - http://www.joshcaple.com (in the process of a major overhaul to coincide with a re-branding)

so many more but it's bed time...


dbrayack


Apr 28, 2008, 4:51 AM
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cough shamless promition, cough shamless promotion

http://www.brayackmedia.com

and photographers who I really look up to:


http://www.michaelclarkphoto.com/

http://www.coreyrich.com/

http://www.onsight.com.au/


guangzhou


Apr 28, 2008, 11:14 PM
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deepplaymedia wrote:
Travel & Outdoor Photographers Alliance - http://www.t-o-p-a.com/
"TOPA is an online professional photography group geared toward travel, outdoor, and adventure photographers. Our email forum deals specifically with the business issues of our profession, including contracts, copyright, pricing, negotiation, and marketing for both assignment and stock photography. An offshoot of the Editorial Photographers (EP) group, we are founded on the principle of peer mentorship and education for the purpose of building a sustainable freelance photography business environment."

D65 - http://www.d-65.com/
Workflow seminars, documents & consultation. Very valuable!!

Photographers
Corey Rich - http://www.coreyrich.com/
Simon Carter - http://www.onsight.com.au/ (check out his news blog :)
Galen Rowell's work - http://www.mountainlight.com/
Bill Hatcher - http://www.billhatcher.com
& (of course :P) Josh Caple - http://www.joshcaple.com (in the process of a major overhaul to coincide with a re-branding)

so many more but it's bed time...

Wow, I like TOPA too, but i wouldn't list hem as a great rescource. Sure, every now and then, one one the mailing list has something interesting to share, but most of the time, poeple don't say much and have little information i the way of help.

Again, a nice group of photogrpahers with a good cause, but not sure they are a great source of information.

Cheers
Eman


deepplaymedia


Apr 29, 2008, 12:31 AM
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Ha! You're good value Eman. Would you have bothered replying if it had been someone else's post?

Whether or not TOPA is a 'great resource' is completely & utterly irrelevant in a thread that is
In reply to:
an ongoing link thread, just a place to add a cool link to share, etc.
however I must disagree with you. I believe that the 'nice group of photographers' in the group IS in fact a great resource- it is a more focussed version of it's affiliate EP (editorialphoto.com) and almost every serious climbing photographer that I've ever heard of is on there.
Just to clarify, you have to ask a question in order for them to give you an answer.


singe


Apr 29, 2008, 11:39 AM
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i agree with josh... topa is definitely a great resource. the moderators are good at keeping discussions on point so you have less chaff to weed through in your inbox.

other links...

http://aphotoeditor.com
http://www.erikalmas.com
http://www.hoverproductions.com (gregory crewdson)

kyler


guangzhou


Apr 30, 2008, 12:04 AM
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deepplaymedia wrote:
Ha! You're good value Eman. Would you have bothered replying if it had been someone else's post?

Whether or not TOPA is a 'great resource' is completely & utterly irrelevant in a thread that is
In reply to:
an ongoing link thread, just a place to add a cool link to share, etc.
however I must disagree with you. I believe that the 'nice group of photographers' in the group IS in fact a great resource- it is a more focussed version of it's affiliate EP (editorialphoto.com) and almost every serious climbing photographer that I've ever heard of is on there.
Just to clarify, you have to ask a question in order for them to give you an answer.

I do agree, editorialphoto.com is a great recomendation.

Let's see my archive:
Research fee, do i charge it
Anyone worked with Aspen ski resort, I use to give them photos for free tickets, but now I want money instead.

I don't find them that useful.

E


PJ-Nepal


Apr 30, 2008, 3:56 AM
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Completely new on this scene - scooping around for info and inspiration on some coming climbing articles I have planned. Here's some shameless self-promotion:

Rock and ice-climbing photos from Nepal:
http://www.msmediaservice.com/...ekking-climbing.html

Cheers


deepplaymedia


Apr 30, 2008, 9:06 AM
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The threads you reference are no doubt relevant and useful to the people who asked the question, Eman.
No one is going to hold your hand buddy! You might just have to proactively employ some basic thought processes if you wish to utilize a resource of TOPA's nature.... as I mentioned, if you want to know something, you have to ask it. No too complicated?!



Retro-thought: I apologise Eman, you were actually right! It occurred to me that you just upload your photos to a website & wait for the cash (here's another chance for you to defend yourself with an 'I make so much from photos, here's my referral link') to appear in your account.
However I still strongly maintain that the link is relevant for those who might be interested in understanding the industry, developing sustainable business practices, collaborating with/learning from over 600 industry peers etc.


guangzhou


Apr 30, 2008, 9:21 PM
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Thanks for the apology, but I am not sure one was needed. I don't remember feeling insulted by anything you say or did.

As for I just upload photos and wait, well that's only partially true. Yes, I upload to stock sites, both micro and traditional and I let those sites market those images. In my position, I would be foolish not too. The cut they get from the sell more than makes up for the amount of people who see my images.

I also sell prints in local establishments. I do this by hanging prints in restaurants and hotels (Two now) with my contact info on each hung print. I do OK with this.

Part of my income in photography also come form direct sells to magazines. A few editors know me and like my stuff, so I am lucky in that regard, but I do keep a steady supply of images on their desk so they don't forget me too. I buy a copy of the photographer's Market every other year to find new photo-buyers. Unlike many, I actually contact the listed people and see what happens. I contact three editor/buyers a week. Some buy, other don't. I send the contact out every Monday and this has found me people who need my images. On average, i make on new contact who is interested a month. With email today, it's cheap and easy.

For a few outdoor Magazines, I write articles and provide images to accompany those. Editor do like the complete package and it makes their job easier. In a couple of those cases, the editors have contacted me about other article and photos. Sometime I can help, sometimes I can't. I also have acolumn i provide free of charge to a small local press, in exchange, I get a free ad in the publication.


Last year I taught four workshops. One on shooting moving water, not to complicated, another on scenic images.

The other two were workshop on selling stock-photography.

We shot images specifically for stock, decided what licensing was best for those images, and worked on getting them keyword. Again, a very basic class in my view, but it's what people wanted based on question I kept getting.

After writing an article on how to shoot rock climbers, I was contacted about putting together a weekend climbing photography class in Japan. I may do this in the fall if I have time. i think it would be fun, profitable, and I would increase my stock images. It's an easy read and probably to basic for you, but here is the link.
http://www.outdoorjapan.com/...876?language=english Don't worry, I don't get paid based on how many times it gets read.

Am I great at marketing? No. Do I jump on opportunities when I see them, yes, that is why my photography income is doing well. Do I post my referral link, sometime, when the opportunity comes up, I take advantage of it. Roughly 20 photographers from this site have tried to get accepted through my referral link, one managed. Two photobuyers have bough subscription to the site, so some people actually appreciate the information.

One photo buyer from this site contacted me about an image I had on the RF market. He wanted to use it for a brochure he was working on, but didn't want to pay for subscription to the site for just on images. He felt $200.00 was bit much for one image, so he and I negotiate a $100.00 fee for an RF license. he PayPaled me and I emailed him the tiff.

Two RC.com people asked me to teach a stock photography workshop, I couldn't make the schedule time, so I recommended someone who could. I could have scheduled it for June, but it would haveinterefere with my climbing trip across California, so I didn't. Climbing is more important to me than photography income.

While these may seem insignificant, every little bit of marketing, including this explanation helps my sales go up.

I don't ever plan on being a full time photographer. it's not an industry that screams my name. What I do know is that for decades now, amature photographers, like me, have provided their images to the buying public. For decades now, professional photographer have been complaining.

The best photographers aren't going to be the most successful photographers.

The most successful photographers are the one who are good at running a business and marketing themselves. They are the ones who look for new ways of getting their images sold, they embrace new technology and apply it to what their doing, and they market their brand at every opportunities.

Read Ansel Adams Biography and you'll see that he didn't earn a living with his images until a maanger took over his company.

Will I ever be a great and famous photogrpaher, not likely, but the money I earn with my images has ben a nice bonus. I can use it on climbing trips, camera gear, and to invest in my retirement. My photogrpahy incomes grows every year and I don't care whether other like or dislike how I do business.

Cheers
Eman
...


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Apr 30, 2008, 9:33 PM)


pico23


Apr 30, 2008, 10:25 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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Let the pissing match begin...god I love this site!!!




kriso9tails


May 1, 2008, 12:46 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Photography Links! [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
I don't ever plan on being a full time photographer. it's not an industry that screams my name. What I do know is that for decades now, amature photographers, like me, have provided their images to the buying public. For decades now, professional photographer have been complaining.

Well, I'm not one to complain about this sort of thing personally, but you are the McDonald's of the photo industry... or rather, an individual franchise. Or maybe that analogy stops a bit short, but I'm not gonna get into it in this thread. There's a reason professional photographers dislike this sort of thing, and in most cases it has less to do with money than many seem to think.

Still, maybe this chat's already been played out enough and we should stick to photo links for this thread. I don't have much off the top of my head, but here's a Vancouverite

Rich Wheater

Also, though I'm not much into stock, I think that Aurora Photo is pretty interesting (and looking through the photographers, some of you will undoubtedly see some interesting names).


deepplaymedia


May 1, 2008, 1:32 AM
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Haha! I'm not hating on Eman & I'm not even slightly interested in getting into a pissing match with him. Admittedly I did make a couple comments to stir him up (all in the name of good fun) that I could have done away with.

While I wouldn't ever run my own business the way that he claims to (I put a lot of work into capturing my photographs & I couldn't afford nor bring myself to sell them dime-for-a-dozen) at the end of the day I couldn't care less what he does with his photos.
I do, however, care when he uses these forums to lobby opinions that are unfounded and practices that are potentially harmful to the industry. Nothing wrong with posting his opinions, & it would be a lot easier for me to just sit back quietly (not have my name dragged through the e-mud of these internet slinging matches) but I spend too much time educating clients about issues like licensing, pricing, copyrights etc to not (at least) call Eman (and others) out to defend their claims.

That said, check these out!
http://chasejarvis.com/ - interesting blog with some good tech tips
http://www.copyright4clients.com/ - helpful resource for the above mentioned education of clients
http://www.useplus.com/ - having a crack at a universal licensing scheme, very helpful if you are looking to license (the new word for sell Wink) your photos


(This post was edited by deepplaymedia on May 1, 2008, 1:41 AM)


guangzhou


May 1, 2008, 7:15 AM
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Thanks for education the public Josh, I think they need it. By the way, do you educate those photographers you don't pay in your magazine about the downfall of the industry for licensing images at to low a cost? Oh, wait, you're a small publication who can't afford regular liscences, so it's ok to pay nothing from what I remember.

I think you should reread what I wrote above, you'll find that I have more than one way of marketing my images.

About 40% are Rf (About 80% on micros and 20 more traditin stock agency) and the other 60% RM if that helps. Works for me.

My dozen for a dime images earn me enough to purchase a D300 last month, so I'll keep some RF stuff in my portfolio.

RF has been the down fall of the stock photography industry since the 70's. Sure is a slow industry to crumble.

I like the Araura link, nice job listing one of those pestie stock photography sites. They also have great relationships with their photographers and follow the industry standards to a "T."

Not sure if they were mentioned, but here are a couple others.

Sportshooters.com

Outdooreyes.com

Studio photography magazine

lightstalkers (Mostly editorial, but nice for people looking for work in that area.)


(This post was edited by guangzhou on May 1, 2008, 7:24 AM)

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