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majid_sabet
Apr 23, 2008, 11:07 PM
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They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .
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chossmonkey
Apr 23, 2008, 11:26 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .
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shockabuku
Apr 23, 2008, 11:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .
Majid, maybe you should add some of these to your bottle of webbing with a quick kit of glue, drill, and hammer.
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majid_sabet
Apr 23, 2008, 11:39 PM
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I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
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wanlessrm
Apr 24, 2008, 12:19 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
Why only one time?
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2008, 12:40 AM
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wanlessrm wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue. Really? Why only one time?
There has been few times where I rap and missed the rap hanger or for some reasons the rap bolts were gone and I had to jug back up .A bolt/hanger like this would be a great tool cause you could twist it and rap on it.
of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".
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shockabuku
Apr 24, 2008, 12:56 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: wanlessrm wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue. Really? Why only one time? There has been few times where I rap and missed the rap hanger or for some reasons the rap bolts were gone and I had to jug back up .A bolt/hanger like this would be a great tool cause you could twist it and rap on it. of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".
I think you could just leave a note that said "Majid" and that would be good enough!
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Valarc
Apr 24, 2008, 12:57 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
uhhh... wtf??
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jt512
Apr 24, 2008, 2:41 AM
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Valarc wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue. uhhh... wtf??
Majid is just being modest. He knows that most of us don't have his SuperMajid strength.
Jay
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billcoe_
Apr 24, 2008, 2:36 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: They have very impressive specs for pull out strength. Here is a link to the actual bolt page http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm And a pic of the bolts. [image]http://www.bolt-products.com/images/6mmbolts.gif[/image]
They look to be the strongest cheapest stainless steel combo for limestone and weak rock bolted routes. It's what most of Europe is starting to use, there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results, and they've tested them at the Red and found them better as well. The reality, hoever, of staring at a 6mm piece of rod (@1/4 " us), is a different breed of cat though. Falling on it can elongate the "hanger" part of the bolt without reduction in strength, something else which would take some getting use to as well.
Majid is kidding, the hole gets drilled oversized to accommodate the glue, there is no hole you would have a drill for to archive even a 1 time result of this holding. You need specifically engineered Construction Epoxy like the Hilty ty500 or the Ultrabond 1300. Simpson makes a 2 part epoxy you can get at home depot that has the specs as well. Hole cleanliness and sizing is critical! Furthermore, using Gorilla brand duct tape with an X cut in it for the Bueller bolt to fit in just to keep the glue in until it drys looks to be the way to go as well.
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truello
Apr 24, 2008, 2:42 PM
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Rick Weber tested a few of these at Animal Crackers Wall in Muir Valley. He claims they're stronger than the hangers we're used to.
Stronger or not they feel like you're clipping into a paper clip. That's a good thing though, they're much lower profile.
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chossmonkey
Apr 24, 2008, 3:34 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: Majid is kidding, the hole gets drilled oversized to accommodate the glue, there is no hole you would have a drill for to archive even a 1 time result of this holding. You need specifically engineered Construction Epoxy like the Hilty ty500 or the Ultrabond 1300. Simpson makes a 2 part epoxy you can get at home depot that has the specs as well. Hole cleanliness and sizing is critical! Furthermore, using Gorilla brand duct tape with an X cut in it for the Bueller bolt to fit in just to keep the glue in until it drys looks to be the way to go as well.
My biggest concern would be deformation on steeper routes, but I haven't heard of it being a problem.
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2008, 3:59 PM
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The only way you can truly tell if these are stronger is by setting up a static anchor and then pull them with a puller and compare the data from load cell to other similar type bolts.
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 24, 2008, 4:00 PM)
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marde
Apr 24, 2008, 7:40 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: ... My biggest concern would be deformation on steeper routes, but I haven't heard of it being a problem.
As bolts like that (without the twists) are pretty much the standard in Germany I can tell you there's no problem about that.
And at least in the Frankenjura you see climbers falling on steep and very steep routes on the same bolts the whole day.
No problem even after years.
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gunkiemike
Apr 25, 2008, 12:09 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.
You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.
Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
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stymingersfink
Apr 25, 2008, 3:32 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit. You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait. Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
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majid_sabet
Apr 25, 2008, 3:37 AM
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woo, 5500 lbs and still holding !!
At 1000 pounds the bolt stretched a tiny bit, crumbling a little rock at the entrance to the bolt hole. At about 2200 pounds, a piece of the rock around the bolt hole entrance broke away to a depth of about 1/2 inch, again caused by deformation of the bolt. At 3500 pounds, the pump bypass valve kicked in, requiring harder pumping to increase the force. The loop on the bolt stretched but never lost its shape where the shackle attached. The shackle is shaped similarly to a carabiner on a quickdraw.
At 5660 pounds (25+ kiloNewtons), I stopped the test. The bolt was intact and the epoxy in the hole was holding solid. Only about 3/4 inch of the epoxy around the 5.5 inch length of bolt shank had broken away when the rock around the hole failed. This left almost 5 inches of epoxied shank in the hole. After the initial test, I relieved the pressure and cranked it back up again to 5660 pounds and let it sit under load for about a half hour.
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billcoe_
Apr 28, 2008, 2:57 AM
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Yeah, the real impressive part is that the Red is reputed to have real soft rock. This is not Granite or Basalt, in fact I think it's softer then most sandstones and limestones isn't it?
As far as the glue goes, the 2 part epoxy is better than i part acrylic: like everywhere. However, what is interesting is that different places have results. In Swinburne South Africa, they tested a wide range of adhesives, and found that Upat
Ampoules (Quartz aggreggate, Epoxy acrylate resin with Hardener in a glass capsule) worked the best, better even than Hilti HY-150, which is a strong 2 part epoxy. That rock is substantially soft.
http://www.saclimb.co.za/...andstone_report.html
Here's some links to more info on the Bueller style twist bolts, and some U-bolt info in Australia. With U-bolts, spacing and thread depth are very important. This guy did his masters thesis on it so it's very good, but still leaves some holes in the data.
http://climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
http://www.chockstone.org/...SandstoneBolting.pdf
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vertical_planar
May 29, 2008, 1:27 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results
Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information
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j_ung
May 29, 2008, 1:37 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: gunkiemike wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit. You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait. Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies. I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.
Majid M.O.: Talk out of your ass, then backpedal, qualify and re-qualify when you're called out. Resist being "wrong" at all costs. That way, even when you're right, people don't believe you.
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marde
May 29, 2008, 2:27 PM
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vertical_planar wrote: Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it. Check your facts before sperading false information
http://www.theuiaa.org/...A123_RockAnchors.pdf
i guess.
do you know why that is, because there is no further description or reason why that design is xed out.
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