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Partner angry


May 10, 2008, 2:54 PM
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Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!!
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This test was done in response to several of Majid's threads with his assertation that he could strip the sheath off a rope and rappel to safety on strands of the core.

This isn't a personal attack on Majid, this is a test of a pretty crazy idea he keeps touting as effective.

Here, here and here

I decided to find out on my own.

The rope I used was a Maxim 11mm in good shape but retired due to outrageous bulk.

I cut a piece about the length of a pool table. I used a half serrated and kinda sharp knife with dried avocado on it. The exact same knife I'd have with me in a climbing situation. I chose not to use a sharper knife or sharpen this one for that exact reason.



I then tried to get the individual strands of core out.

It took me 5 minutes to get this far. It is not possible to remove the strands and leave the sheath.



So I started cutting at the sheath. Sitting comfortably on the couch, warm, and relaxed, this was extremely slow. Hanging and in trouble, I can't hardly imagine.

15 minutes of effort



I gave up on realistic portrayal and got a sweet pair of scissors. It still took me half an hour or more to get it out. On a ledge and with a full rope (assuming the bluejay story) this would take an entire day or more.



So I got it out. Stripping the sheath does cause an occasional nick on the core strands. Very small. More on this later.

Majid's claim was that with 5 feet he could get 30 feet down. This rope had 13 strands inside so that would mean I would have to rap on 2 strands and I'd have a leftover. Using this as a reference, I tied some knots to see if this slicker material held.

DBL Fishermans


DBL EDK



Retraced Fig 8.



ALL 3 of these knots held without slipping!!! They were extremely difficult to tie with the slickness, like color, and double everything. It is impossible to get a well dressed knot, but they didn't slip.

Also of note, look at this spagetti birds-nest. This is 8 feet of rope, imagine 200!!



Now to the actual rap.

Lets ignore distance knots use, and say that 5 feet of rope will make 30 feet of double strands. That means it will need to be tied to the anchor and you'll rap is as a single line and pass knots.

Standard setup

Hard to put together without a tangle. I could not hold this longer than a second. This won't work, I need more friction.



Even with a redirect, I'm not even close. I need WAY more friction. So I get creative. I attach a runner to my tie in points and put a munter hitch on it. Below the munter, I attach a belay device.



It almost works. With a redirect off my leg loop I can comfortably rap. The knots are small enough that they pass right through the atc. I cannot however pass the knot on the munter. You probably could if you were rapping a slab but it would not work on a free hanging rappel.

To me, the 5 feet of rope getting you 30 is completely and utterly debunked. I can hang and I can rappel until the knot but I can't unweight it enough to pass the knot.

Remember the nicks in the strands I told you about? Well, the munter and the belay device really screw with them. Outside a sheath, the core of the rope is really fragile.

Oh shit!!



A moment later the single remaining strand broke. I probably didn't die as it was only 30' to the ground, but I'm surely very injured.

So if you get stranded 30 feet off the ground and only have 5 feet of rope, don't use Majid's trick, you'll get stuck on a knot, the rope will break, and you'll fall.

Now to the bluejay professor. If I interpret all the ESL bullshit correctly, he ended up in a situation where he needed to make a double rope rappel to the ground and only had a single rope. No suitable intermediate anchors were available. It's hard to say exactly because the math was so far off on this one that it really was impossible to analyze.

The solution was to again strip the sheath and rap to the ground. At least this time he had a full rope to work with and wouldn't need to pass knots.

I set it up as a double rope rappel. It took me 4 tries to get it all in the right position because the noodly strands. However, here it is.



I apologize for not locking my belay biners. It just goes to show that climbing disasters can happen, even in your basement.

Anyway, the lower biner is just wrapped, not muntered. It sortof worked but there isn't much friction. When I muntered the lower biner, opposite of the 30 with 5 setup, it was quite casual to rappel.

Without passing the knots, the strands didn't get as damaged but still got very very ripped up.

So is it plausible? That is a judgement call. It was very clear that the strands would not hold up to two rappels. So if one double rap would get you to the ground, there is a chance. If anywhere on the rap the rope rubs, on even the smallest of thing, it will cut the rope. It's shocking how quickly these strands get damaged once exposed.

I can think of only one scenario where this would be effective.

You are in a remote wilderness area doing an extremely hard FA and a loose block flies by, missing you and killing your partner.

No-one knows you two are there, so no-one will look for you. You are alone with one rope (lets say the loose block took your other rope, rack, and all gear but a few slings down). So you are alone, in shock, and there are 5 pitches of 5.12 R above you. 200 feet below you there is a ledge that you might be able to walk off the formation on. You really have nothing to lose.

So there you go. I'm not adding this to my arsenal.

Far far better than any of this bullshit is to tell someone where you're going and when you expect to get back.


wmfork


May 10, 2008, 3:19 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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trophy!


socalclimber


May 10, 2008, 6:29 PM
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Re: [wmfork] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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This whole idea is fucking stupid. Nice work Angry. Not surprised by the results though. I guess in a pinch this could work.

I respect Majid for his SAR work, but after running the volunteer side of the SAR team here in JTree, I quit. I got fed up with SAR geeks who are constantly quoting "Tests in the Lab", and "Physics" being babbled forth by people with way to much time on their hands no time to climb. I worked in labs for years, including NASA JPL. In the real world, it's dog eat dog. Lab results are just that, stuff you find out in the lab. It's a baseline. Once you are in reality, lot's of things that were "facts" fly out the window.


notapplicable


May 10, 2008, 6:38 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Good report man.

While reading through it I was as surprised as you were by the fragility of the core material. Being unbraided I guess it makes sense though, just never really thought about it.

If I ever find myself stripping the sheath from my rope in a desperate bid at self rescue, things have gone so terribly wrong I'm probably as good as dead. That being said, atleast I now know what I'll be getting into if I loose that lottery.

Thanks


gunkiemike


May 11, 2008, 5:25 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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But it worked for Stallone in Cliffhanger!







OK, so that was a laid rope, no sheath involved.


Partner gunksgoer


May 11, 2008, 6:07 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
You are in a remote wilderness area doing an extremely hard FA and a loose block flies by, missing you and killing your partner.

No-one knows you two are there, so no-one will look for you. You are alone with one rope (lets say the loose block took your other rope, rack, and all gear but a few slings down). So you are alone, in shock, and there are 5 pitches of 5.12 R above you. 200 feet below you there is a ledge that you might be able to walk off the formation on. You really have nothing to lose.


In this scenario wouldnt fixing your rope and doing a single line rap to the ground be the best way to go?


dan2see


May 11, 2008, 6:50 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Yes Angry certainly deserves a trophy for his research on Majid's de-shieth technique. We can all learn a lot of lessons from this work. Angelic

angry wrote:
...
Far far better than any of this bullshit is to tell someone where you're going and when you expect to get back.

Well I had posted my own version of "tell someone", here it is:
dan2see wrote:
I have the entire solution to the professor's challenge

majid_sabet wrote:
A university professor (leading expert in South American blue jay) decided to go and check out the new nest by a dry waterfall. His plan was to rappel 700 feet on the face of the dry waterfall. ...

The waterfall is dry, so a lot of trees and bushes, grass and moss, are growing on the cracks and ledges. This is home to a lot of creatures.

But not blue jays!

Jays like the big woods, the kind you see in Canada and USA, where they can fly from tree to tree. They like evergreens, especially pines, so they compete with red squirrels (but not grey squirrels, who prefer deciduous).
In my neighbourhood, they often fly from tree-top to tree-top, always in a straight line, always at least 10 meters off the ground. When they meet a red squirrel, they argue for the rights to the tree branches.

Based on this knowledge, the professor's solution is:

majid_sabet wrote:
On early Monday, professor headed to see the blue jays. A hot summer day with no climbers around, professor decided to go naked ...

professor decided to go naked as a jay-bird, and spent the rest of the morning enjoying the sun and the wind and the birds (but not the jays).

After enjoying his lunch in peace, he packs up his clothes and gear, and hits the trail back to his camp, so he could enjoy a delightful dinner and lovely night.

The professor might be smart, but he ain't crazy!
Tongue

My solution might be fun, but the professor wouldn't learn as much as Angry did. Sly


Partner robdotcalm


May 11, 2008, 8:00 PM
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Re: [dan2see] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Thanks for the effort, Angry. Very interesting data on something one could only conjecture about before you did this.

I agree with Gunksgoer about fixing the rope as one strand and rappelling. Better yet take half-ropes or twins. They afford more rappelling options. It's something I've done on longer routes just for the escape options offered by having 2 ropes.

r.c


ts83


May 11, 2008, 8:02 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Well played, sir.

-Edited because I didn't want to ruin the surprise.


(This post was edited by ts83 on May 11, 2008, 10:01 PM)


Partner camhead


May 11, 2008, 8:56 PM
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thanks angry!




Partner angry


May 11, 2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: [gunksgoer] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Yes, you are absolutely right. I didn't think that clearly at the time.

So change the scenario to 600ft. You'd have to rap and abandon your rap line each time as it really wouldn't handle a pull or another cycle through the belay devices. With 13 strands and 4 being the only reasonably safe amount to rap on (remember how easily 2 broke) that give you a max of 600 feet down you could travel.

It's also been brought up in PM that maybe I don't know how to pass a knot on a munter. That is not the case, slippery ropes the width of your shoelace change the whole game. Try it yourself sometime and you'll see.


jmvc


May 12, 2008, 6:56 AM
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Thanks for the testing!

Can you imagine abseiling knowing that if there's any friction from the rock you're dead? Something I won't be trying methinks..

Kind of contradicts "Have a safe climb!"..


dingus


May 12, 2008, 7:24 AM
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McGuyver coulda done it.

James Bond too.

You're no Super Spy angry!

DMT


WVUCLMBR


May 12, 2008, 7:26 AM
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Woah....it looks nice out in pic #1....why weren't you out climbing?....oh...and any thread relating to Majid needs red/green arrows and at least one meteor and an army guy.


reg


May 12, 2008, 7:50 AM
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time to cut the grass son - thanks for the informitive de-bunk - bet you could incorporate a few more re-directs - a web of re-directs - to make it work. how about trimmin a few feet off for a mini prussic to pass the knots?
i used to know a mini prussic in high school - she still owes me 10 bucks!


dutyje


May 12, 2008, 8:04 AM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Great thread. Got me thinking about the original Bluejay problem, though. Here's what I would have proposed as a solution, and it doesn't take anywhere near as long:

Chop off 1-2 meters of your rope. Fix one end of it to the anchor with your knot of choice. Take the remaining rope and attach it to the free end of your short rope using a sheepshank. Weight the sheepshank to keep it in place and rap a nearly-full rope length to the rap station.

Once at the rap station, a few flicks of your rope should release the sheepshank. Hack off another 1-2 meters and repeat the process. Home free. No intricate rope surgery.

Of course, it's still quite risky to rap off a sheepshank. But it beats the alternative of a naked man rapping off a naked rope.

I'm surprised the ingenious Major Sorbet didn't think of this.

Oh yeah... what's up with the music video? Laugh


(This post was edited by dutyje on May 12, 2008, 8:48 AM)


skinnyclimber


May 12, 2008, 10:30 AM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Great post. I would have hesitated to try this before your post, and now shudder at the thought of trying it.

I too will not add this to my bag of tricks.

ON A RELATED NOTE:

On a formation in the Sandias (my local "crag") A party once used the core of their shredded rope to retrieve a rope from their rescuers below. They (I assume) pulled out all the core pieces and tied them together to have a cord long enough to lower to the ground.

I would definitely consider that option. This would work especially well with your plan of telling someone where you are going and when you are supposed to be back.


majid_sabet


May 12, 2008, 10:55 AM
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Re: [dutyje] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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I suggested this solution by ripping the cord apart and tie it together to make the last effort to help you in getting down to base. As I said, use it as the last effort when you have insufficient length of soft gear to complete a long rap. Yes, you can die if you rig this thing incorrectly but you still have higher chances to survive if you get down vs. sitting on a ledge and die for not reaching the base. Give that same amount of rope/cord that Angry is shown to an inmate in death row and then put them on the top of 20 story high building and tell them “freedom is at the bottom of the wall”

You will see how they manage to get down.


irregularpanda


May 12, 2008, 11:22 AM
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Re: [camhead] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
thanks angry!

[image]http://birdonthemoon.com/you_win_the_prize-thumb.jpeg[/image]

I think this deserves the real trophy. This is symbolic on so many levels.....

I think the thing I enjoyed the most about this thread was that I just found my avocado encrusted knife that has never seen a sponge or dishsoap once in it's long life of service.


WVUCLMBR


May 12, 2008, 12:10 PM
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Here is an actual rope made by inmate to escape.....I miss you daddy!!!!



Partner angry


May 12, 2008, 4:01 PM
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Re: [irregularpanda] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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A couple points to clarify.

1. Neither me nor my roommate enjoy mowing lawns in our off time. I like grown out grass and it makes us look poor. This is good for the neighborhood. Also, as far as I know, there are no ordinances in this area that would prevent us from getting a goat. That's what I'd do if I owned the house.

2. It wasn't very nice that day, though the sun was shining. When you have the time to climb every single day with no end in sight, you have to just take some time off once in a while or you'll die.

3. The material was too slick to tie prussiks to and too flimsy to survive a prussik if you did.

Just to reiterate.

In the 30 feet with 5 feet of rope to avoid a rescue. This will not work. There are several modes of failure. It is not an option. At all.

The bluejay idea might, but it would be outrageously dangerous. Remember that the strands are by and large not re-useable and once they get any fray they tend to break shortly after. Don't do it.


One thing I didn't test that irregular panda brought up is the giant network of redirects. This would be easier on your rope than a munter. However, with all those soft strands all over the place, making a hell of a mess, I had a hard enough time simply getting them through a belay device right. Adding complexity to an already clusterfucked system is asking for trouble.


a.frosch


May 12, 2008, 4:08 PM
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Re: [angry] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
When you have the time to climb every single day with no end in sight, you have to just take some time off once in a while or you'll die.

Angry,

I'd be very interested to hear what you do for a job, and where I could get one like it, or if you don't work, how you manage to get money for climbing trips.

Cheers.


dutyje


May 12, 2008, 6:11 PM
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Seriously, gusy.. Sheepshank...

Reusable, and safer than rapping on a spool of thread... takes less than a minute to set up at each rap station... where are the negatives?

Do I need to post photos? I know I'm not the only sailor who has brought this to the forums.... I'm not even a sailor... I yakked up three gallons on my last deep-sea fishing trip. But my grandfather with his peg leg and navy tattoos.. He'd have rapped off a sheepshank for kicks.


majid_sabet


May 12, 2008, 10:38 PM
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Re: [dutyje] Bluejays debunked, Majid-Busters!! [In reply to]
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Angry

This is my rap device which can handle any size rope or cord and it could pass small knots and can be rigged to create any type of friction with any load size on you.This prototype device goes with me on every climb So tomorrow, I am going to get the 5 meter rope apart and have that 30 footer tied up to rap with my 8.

You better hope something happens to me, otherwise , I am coming after you once I get down.

[URL=http://imageshack.us]

[URL=http://imageshack.us]

[URL=http://imageshack.us]


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 12, 2008, 10:45 PM)


irregularpanda


May 12, 2008, 10:45 PM
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Majid,
I think the whole point of what angry is implying is that this should be possible to do with gear that any climber has at hand. He didn't say this explicitly, but he did imply it.

I carry a knife. I carry an ATC. I carry rope, sometimes 2 ropes. I carry gear. I carry a headlamp. I carry a jacket, sometimes extra clothes. I carry water and food.

I don't carry a modified rescue 8 for belaying. I realize this can be used for belaying, but out of the people who use a figure 8 in the USA, very few of them use a rescue 8.


(This post was edited by irregularpanda on May 12, 2008, 10:46 PM)

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