|
0x2102
May 29, 2008, 3:20 PM
Post #26 of 75
(16519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2005
Posts: 115
|
majid_sabet wrote: of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".
So, you could use it and survive, but someone else would die?
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
May 29, 2008, 5:19 PM
Post #27 of 75
(16500 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
vertical_planar wrote: billcoe_ wrote: there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it. Check your facts before sperading false information
There are thousands of them in Argolis region of Greece.
They are not the same design as the "X"ed bolts on the UIAA page.
Whether they are UIAA certified yet is rather irrelevant. They are stronger than anything else on the market This is from their website, "All our products exceed the relevant European standard EN959 and are so certified."
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_planar
May 30, 2008, 6:44 AM
Post #28 of 75
(16470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 320
|
marde wrote: do you know why that is, because there is no further description or reason why that design is xed out.
No. I can tell you for sure that the guy who sellls the bolts has bolted some crags in Greece around 2000. In a magazine publication back then he stated that "he plans to certify his bolts to UIAA standards" That never happened. He either didn't bother or tried and failed.
(This post was edited by vertical_planar on May 30, 2008, 6:56 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_planar
May 30, 2008, 6:54 AM
Post #29 of 75
(16468 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 320
|
chossmonkey wrote: Whether they are UIAA certified yet is rather irrelevant. They are stronger than anything else on the market This is from their website, "All our products exceed the relevant European standard EN959 and are so certified."
EN959 is provided by the manufacturer of the bolts himself and is not subjected to any external audit. UIAA certification is provided by an independent body (UIAA in this case). If you trust the manufacturer more than UIAA thats fine- but I dont see how the UIIA cert is irrelevant. On the contrary
As for the bolts instaled in Argolida, they are exacty the design shown in the UIAA standard. The bolts on the site are a later design (he does not sell the ones installed in argolida any more for some reason- maybe because they used to bend when you simply put body weight on them). There is only one (relatively) new crag in Argolis (in Katafiki ravine) where he installed the new bolts.
|
|
|
|
|
miklaw
May 30, 2008, 8:03 AM
Post #30 of 75
(16450 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 99
|
The rock at The Red is very good compared to Australian Blue Mountains sandstone. We have found that 8mm or less ringbolts (both single shaft welded "P" bolts and double shaft bolts similar to this), tho heaps strong, tend to fatigue badly. Every fall breaks a bit of rock off the edge of the hole and you end up with a crater. Fine for good rock though.
mikl
|
|
|
|
|
vterinme
Jun 1, 2008, 11:24 PM
Post #31 of 75
(16405 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2007
Posts: 57
|
Ahhh, the only thing Majid has screwed is his mother...
Why oh why did she waste all that money on his child birth..
In the end they are bolts.... if you're worried climb trad and do the walk off...
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jun 24, 2008, 5:05 AM
Post #32 of 75
(16152 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
vertical_planar wrote: billcoe_ wrote: there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it. Check your facts before sperading false information
Well thanks for the heads up: that's why I always post the link: so i can toss it back in folks faces:-). However, when someone revamps their web site......I'm pretty sure that I earlier read dude said that, however, thanks for pointing it out, as I cannot find that exact quote on his site. He does have gaping holes in his data for sure! Big time. And now he has a bunch of new information since he is apparently now selling the SS twisted glue-in bolts and has some interesting testing info which is new as well. The testing info, WHICH SHOWS THAT A WELL CLEANED HOLE TESTS TO 34KG, want to see the exact quote ? God forbid I'm "sperading specificaly" bad info by quoting what I have read. I do appreciate you adding to the knowledge base though. Thanks.
Here I will quote verbatim, the link is already above:
"Bolt Products Glue-In Bolts.
You may have noticed that for our own glue-ins we give much better results than this, a minimum is 35kN and in reasonable rock we achieve around 50kN at which point the bolt breaks. In fact in an independant test a bolt was still holding 31,4kN when testing was stopped with only 42mm of embedment. The bolt was glued in using an epoxy rated at 12,4N/mm² in a 12,7mm (½") hole which with this depth should only hold to 20,78kN.
Obviously either the formula gives incorrect results or there is something special about our bolts.
The answer lies in the unique structure of Bolt Products bolts which allow us to use both mechanical and chemical fastening. Not only does the twisted leg design give outstanding mechanical keying for the glue but a wedging effect is induced internally in the bolt when you try to extract it. As the two legs are not joined at their lower end they slide across each other and wedge into place, roviding an additional mechanical effect along with the normal glue.
To demonstrate this action we have tested a number of bolts dry fitted without any glue.
The photographs and results below are from tests in a granite block until it disintegrated. We then moved to a softish concrete block and achieved an amazing 33,84kN with an 8mm rod bolt.
The bolt top right is a 6mm rod 80mm long bolt radially tested in a granite block to 19.8kN when it extracted.
The large bolt in the centre is a 8mm rod X 150mm long bolt radially tested in a soft concrete block which held 33,8kN.
The bolt lower left is a 6mm rod 100mm long bolt also tested in concrete to 18kN at failure.
Axial tests we have performed give values of around 60% of the radial tests."
Anyway, if you have knowledge that this is Fed up, please step forward immediately! I see that he indicates that the DAV insists U-bolts are not utilized, but i appears he indicates unthreaded ones are the issue, and that he did not test standard threaded U-bolts at all.
___________________________________________________
Next:
hotgemini wrote: I too have misgivings about the South African tests, very small sample sizes, bad practice hole sizing (same size as anchor), insufficient cure time, oddly designed and undersize anchors. All they really demonstrated was that poor bolting leads to poor bolts. But I guess research has to start somewhere. As for non-mixing epoxy, it is a pretty academic discussion. If you started sticking in a bolt and noticed that the glue wasn't mixing properly, you'd be a fool to continue. The big dig anchor failures was attributed to creep, which is where a material is subjected to a constant high (eg. a significant percentage of its yield strength) load (and usually temperature but obviously not in the big dig case) which does not apply to climbing anchors. A bolting colleague of mine just made an incredibly ingenious rig, its a modified set of (large) bolt cutters, he's added rollers onto the pivots of the bolt cutters allowing him to use it to both cut the 10mm stainless and neatly and repeatedly bend U bolts with a 50mm leg spacing, very quickly by hand. That still leaves the task of grinding, notching and washing the U bolts so its not quite the field deployable bolt factory it might first appear. -Adam.
*Like you Adam, I think that the South African tests had holes in it, but so does the Aussie's Masters thesis!
*The non-mixing of epoxy is somewhat assuaged by starting by squirting a test patch into some plastic and then doing the anchor. Later, if the test patch didn't firm up, re-do the anchor. It is a poor method, but the best out there currently.
*Short version of the big dig failure: they not only substituted a fast cure Epoxy material thinking it would be better as they were injecting it into vertical overhead holes (which was as you say not tested or rated for "creep"), it was also freezing cold, often below the recommended install temp and the roof was dripping water at the time.
* For homemade u-bolts, I think the key to the strength is getting the epoxy keyed into it. So a shallow grind won't work well. Commercially available threads were extensivly tested on the Australian guys masters thesis, and worked very effectively as long as one pays attention to the sizing as well as the thread depth/keying issue.
* The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing.
But that's me.
Take care all!
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_planar
Jun 24, 2008, 2:15 PM
Post #33 of 75
(16123 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 320
|
billcoe_ wrote: * The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing. But that's me.
dude since you seem to prefer unoffical info here's a piece of it:
The sketch was added in the UIAA standard specifically to indicate the unsuitability of the Argolis bolts.
Take it or leave it, your pick
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jun 24, 2008, 3:09 PM
Post #34 of 75
(16104 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Ok Ok, I'll take it!
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jun 24, 2008, 3:11 PM
Post #35 of 75
(16101 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Take it for now, however, Chossmonkeys post above is in direct conflict with your info.
Anyone else have any knowledge on this?
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Jun 24, 2008, 3:40 PM
Post #36 of 75
(16090 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
Those things look like they are made out of a coat hanger!
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Jun 30, 2008, 2:21 AM
Post #37 of 75
(15955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
vertical_planar wrote: billcoe_ wrote: * The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing. But that's me. dude since you seem to prefer unoffical info here's a piece of it: The sketch was added in the UIAA standard specifically to indicate the unsuitability of the Argolis bolts. Take it or leave it, your pick
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Jul 3, 2008, 3:38 PM
Post #38 of 75
(15859 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
|
|
|
|
|
bigo
Jul 4, 2008, 4:31 PM
Post #39 of 75
(15807 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 237
|
In reply to: I do not believe those are not UIAA certified
So do you think the UIAA certifies these bolts or not?
Also, the sketch indicating 'no multi-strand bolts' is only referenced in section 2.2.4 - "bolts in coastal environments". It would be an extrapolation to say that the UIAA doesn't certify a multi strand bolt under any circumstances based on the above reference. It may be that the UIAA would certify a multy strand bolt in an inland environment.
(This post was edited by bigo on Jul 14, 2008, 5:15 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 26, 2008, 4:25 PM
Post #40 of 75
(15284 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
j_ung wrote: stymingersfink wrote: gunkiemike wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit. You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait. Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies. I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE. Majid M.O.: Talk out of your ass, then backpedal, qualify and re-qualify when you're called out. Resist being "wrong" at all costs. That way, even when you're right, people don't believe you.
Now he's gunna think you're stalking him and he'll start a thread about putting his angry snake in your stick-hole!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 26, 2008, 4:26 PM
Post #41 of 75
(15285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
stymingersfink wrote: gunkiemike wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit. You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait. Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies. I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 26, 2008, 4:26 PM
Post #42 of 75
(15285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
shockabuku wrote: majid_sabet wrote: of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die". I think you could just leave a note that said "Majid" and that would be good enough! 
|
|
|
|
|
JimTitt
Aug 8, 2008, 7:21 AM
Post #43 of 75
(14953 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 1002
|
As manufacturer of these bolts I would like to clarify a few points.
There are none of these bolts in Kalymnos.
There are 2620 of these fitted in the Argolis and a few other locations in Greece. These have a larger eye than we currently produce. The eye size was reduced as it was seen that inexperienced climbers tended to grab the bolt rather than concentrate on climbing the route and I did not wish to encourage "moral weakness". The bolts with a smaller eye in Katafyki Ravine were made and installed by an Austrian climber.
The bolts were tested in 2000 to EN959 by an independent testing laboratory in Italy and passed but at that time I had no plans to sell them.
The UIAA do not certify products. They allow products to carry the UIAA Safety Label if they are certified by an approved testing laboratory as meeting their standards and on receipt of a yearly fee (currently 1000).
The UIAA Safety Label is considered an irrelevance by rock anchor manufacturers, no manufacturer has applied for the label for a glue-in or bolt-in bolt under the new or old standard.
You can use the search facility on the UIAA website to obtain a list of products conforming to UIAA123. It is extremely short.
The UIAA standard 123 which is referred to was a draft version posted on their website in error (don´t ask!) and will be removed in September.
From the UIAA, 23-06-2008:-
"Sorry, we have not yet update on the website the UIAA Standards on Rock Anchors. In the next new version the requirements you mention will be withdrawn. The new version will be on the website after our general meeting in September in Prag. Note that in this new version the only difference between UIAA 123 and EN 959:2007 (new version) will the requirements on 4.1.Materials, where UIAA 123 will require just stainless steel has it was specified in the previous version EN 959:1996. best regards , Jean-Franck Charlet."
If you wish to confirm this you can mail to safetylabel@uiaa.ch
Bolt Products twisted leg bolts have been independently tested to EN959:2007 by the worlds leading test laboratory, TÜV Sud in Munich. This is also the only UIAA approved test facility for rock anchors. The tests were performed by Dr Volker Kron, leader of the sports equipment testing division and member of the UIAA Safety Commision.
The smallest bolt we sell (6mm rod X 80mm long) was tested using polyester with a cure time of 40 minutes. Axial load was 30kN, radial 34kN. The standard calls for 15kN and 25kN.
If anyone would like a copy of the test report then feel free to mail me, or you may independently search the TÜV open archive to read it.
As has been pointed out Rick Weber has been unable to extract his test bolts, additionally independent tests by the British Mountaineering Council have had the same result in that they have been unable to pull out any of their series of test bolts. This speaks for itself.
We claim to manufacture the strongest bolts in the world and for good reason. Currently our best axial pull (straight out) is 102,8kN (23,109 lbf) for an 8mm rod Sea Water series bolt made from 1:4462 duplex stainless steel, tested in granite using polyester.
Some customers are happy with 6mm rod, others prefer 8mm, the ratio of bolts produced is around 40:60. We experimentally produced a 4mm rod bolt which passed EN959 but even I thought it was scary!
Bolt Products twisted leg bolts received the 2008 European Outdoor Industry Silver Award for innovation in climbing equipment at the OutDoor Exhibition in Freidrichshaven. The link is http://www.ifdesign.de/beitragsdetails_d.html?beitrag_id=42037
Jim Titt
Bolt Products, Germany
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Aug 8, 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #44 of 75
(14920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
^^Clicky^^
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Aug 8, 2008, 11:47 AM
Post #45 of 75
(14917 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
Thanks for posting Jim.
Is there a N.A. distributer? I read something about Rick wanting someone down at the Red to be the distributer. Has this happened or do these bolts need to be ordered and shipped from Europe still?
|
|
|
|
|
JimTitt
Aug 8, 2008, 5:24 PM
Post #46 of 75
(14844 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 1002
|
No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Aug 8, 2008, 5:28 PM
Post #47 of 75
(14843 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
JimTitt wrote: No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested. Jim
|
|
|
|
|
Wavebolt
Oct 26, 2011, 6:23 PM
Post #48 of 75
(13373 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2011
Posts: 10
|
stymingersfink wrote: JimTitt wrote: No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested. Jim Question: On an average annual basis, how many of those things total do you ship to the N.A continent?
Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts (http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.
|
|
|
|
|
JimTitt
Oct 27, 2011, 7:14 AM
Post #49 of 75
(13297 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 1002
|
Wavebolt wrote: Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts ( http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.
Bolt Products Twisted Leg Bolts are interference fit for the last 20mm before the eye to prevent them sliding out. They have been like this for more than 10 years.
They also have considerably higher dry (no glue) extraction resistance than Wavebolts in both radial and axial testing.
Before making advertising claims one is well advised to check, incorrect claims reduce the credibility of the company and its products. That you consider your bolts `the best´is natural but others may for example think that the SeaWater series of bolts we manufacture from 1.4462 Duplex stainless steel are superior in both strength (100kN) and corrosion resistance.
Jim Titt
Bolt Products
|
|
|
|
|
Wavebolt
Oct 27, 2011, 10:22 AM
Post #50 of 75
(13279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2011
Posts: 10
|
JimTitt wrote: Wavebolt wrote: Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts ( http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info. Bolt Products Twisted Leg Bolts are interference fit for the last 20mm before the eye to prevent them sliding out. They have been like this for more than 10 years. They also have considerably higher dry (no glue) extraction resistance than Wavebolts in both radial and axial testing. Before making advertising claims one is well advised to check, incorrect claims reduce the credibility of the company and its products. That you consider your bolts `the best´is natural but others may for example think that the SeaWater series of bolts we manufacture from 1.4462 Duplex stainless steel are superior in both strength (100kN) and corrosion resistance. Jim Titt Bolt Products
Jim,
Your bolts are great, represent a significant advancement over other company's designs, and in fact I have used many over the last few years. However, we do believe our product to be superior to yours, especially in the three claims I made in the above post. I have placed more than one hundred of your bolts just in steep routes and roofs (and many more on slabs), and not once did I have one bolt stay in the rock on its own prior to the adhesive setting or without putting tape over it or some other trick. Certainly I could not clip into into immediately after placement to 'stay in' to the wall. Wave Bolts do this with ease. Second, we feel it is an advantage - for the US market at least - that Wave Bolts are made in the USA and are ready to ship. This leads to my third claim that Wave Bolts are less expensive than other similar products. I have heard that you have been extremely generous with donations and special pricing, but any retail pricing that I have ever seen is more expensive than our price (and ours are substantially less expensive than other companies).
There is no doubt that your SeaWater series would return higher strength ratings than the results we have seen with Wave Bolts. However, it is not an "apples to apples" comparison. From what I can tell, your SeaWater bolts would be a better comparison to our 5/8th inch bolt, which we have not been able to test anywhere near its limits because we simply do not have access to strong enough testing equipment. Note that I did make any specific claims about direct strength comparisons, because at the high numbers that both of our products would yield the strength is just as much if not more affected by the adhesive and medium (type of rock, etc.) than the actual piece of metal in the hole.
So, to be clear, I did not mean to attack you or your product. From what I can tell it appears you aren't even trying to be a major "player" in the US market. And as I said, I think your products are better than those offered by the standard companies. However, I think Wave Bolts have advantages over yours, and therefore are superior.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
