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spikeddem


Jun 4, 2008, 12:51 AM
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Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint
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(This is cut out to make its own thread from a different thread in the lab titled "improved equallette" or something. I have noted one spot in this post that was a reference to that thread.)

The main issue raised in the thread was the lack of a powerpoint in the equalette. This solves that by just enabling the climbers to clip all four bottom strands. No extra biners and no twists.

Additionally, my mentor taught me a few weeks ago different methods of tying in with the rope rather than using extra gear. I understand its advantages and disadvantages, now. This is not meant to replace tying in with the rope when that is more appropriate.

THIS HAS NOT BEEN PULL-TESTED OR DROP-TESTED OR FIELD-TESTED!! USE IN YOUR GARAGE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Laugh

To tie: form loop (not bite) in middle, and do a fisherman's knot on each end of the loop. Adjust so four loops are on bottom and the paired loops are on top.

Here's an equalette with a 4 strand powerpoint, and just two knots. Additionally, the knots are standard, tested double fishermans. (This is in comparison to the proposed "trenchelette," which has 4 knots, two of which were semi-made-up, but seemingly quite safe.) It eats up a bit of the cordelette, but if one really wanted it longer, just buy longer cordelette (the two pictured are each 21 feet long).

Left: The setup before the knots are added (ignore the un-joined ends, I was lazy).
Right: Setup with double fisherman's knots. Clip the bottom four strands with a biner and voila.



The DB fisherman's knots do not join together when the four strands are loaded, because pulling on the four strands pulls them together and apart at the same time.

Now, I just made this up about twenty minutes ago, so it hasn't been tested in any true way, but it passes a good foot-and-hands tug test. I originally sat down to create a trenchelette, but I got side-tracked and made this Laugh.

What do you think?

If just one of the four (powerpoint) strands is cut, it behaves no differently. If two of the (powerpoint) strands are cut, then the self-equalization properties are lost. Then again, if two of the strands are cut on the equalette or trenchelette, the anchor fails overall, so I'd consider the loss of self-equalization acceptable. Sly Note, if the top two strands are cut, then there is failure. However, these strands are under no tension at all.

There is no more extension than a normal equallette.
There is a powerpoint for MANY biners.
There are many strands at the powerpoint.
THere is no extra gear required beyond a cordelette.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jun 4, 2008, 1:00 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 4, 2008, 6:37 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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The same disclaimers apply.

Normally, I steer clear of these threads beyond a cursory glance. For one reason or another (or many reasons) I'm usually unimpressed with what they produce.

This time began similarly for me. My first thought was that it wouldn't work for three and four-piece anchors. My second thought was that it would be a pain in the ass to tie with equal arms. Well, my first thought was wrong and my second, though right, is easily avoided by pre-tying it before you climb.

I adapted it for more pieces by piggy-backing sliding Xs onto it. I suppose you could also tie limiter knots on those Xs if you want, but I think it's overkill and takes up too much cord.

Here it is adapted for three pieces, with the single arm tied short with an overhand (a clove hitch also works and is more adjustable).



Here it is with four pieces.



An important note is that the unloaded top strands have to remain unloaded for this anchor to equalize in all three configurations. As soon as they pull tight, you reach the limits of your equalization. However, if you use them for a shelf, an interesting thing occurs. The shelf and the master point begin to equalize independently of each other. Here it is with the shelf.



I'd love to see some testing done before I use it instead of my tried and true rope anchors, but still... pretty damned cool.

Lastly, you should change your thread title. Wink


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jun 4, 2008, 6:39 AM)


spikeddem


Jun 4, 2008, 1:07 PM
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Re: [j_ung] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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Ahh. I hadn't thought of piggy-backing it with sliding x's like that. I'd never seen that before! I had just been using clove hitches to do more than one piece per arm. (Though, of course, like an equallette, it reduces to 2 strands being equalized instead of 4.)

I also hadn't thought of using the top two strands has a shelf. In your bottom picture, wouldn't pulling downwards on that carabiner pull up two strands (of the bottom four?). Seems like it would mess up equalization if "shelved" people fell and the powerpoint wasn't weighted, but there was a climber in it anyways.

I'll have to play around to see what you mean by the shelf and the masterpoint equalizing independently.


majid_sabet


Jun 4, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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failure = fall = death = your stuff on ebay


spikeddem


Jun 4, 2008, 1:33 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
failure = fall = death = your stuff on ebay

Thanks for not being so ambiguous. It's a good help considering how great your English is in the first place, Major.

Just playing. :)

Edit: Ironically, I added a forgotten word.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jun 4, 2008, 6:15 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 4, 2008, 6:26 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
failure = fall = death = your stuff on ebay

I wish you'd either learn to read or shut up.

spikeddem wrote:
THIS HAS NOT BEEN PULL-TESTED OR DROP-TESTED OR FIELD-TESTED!! USE IN YOUR GARAGE AT YOUR OWN RISK!


Partner j_ung


Jun 4, 2008, 6:31 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
I also hadn't thought of using the top two strands has a shelf. In your bottom picture, wouldn't pulling downwards on that carabiner pull up two strands (of the bottom four?). Seems like it would mess up equalization if "shelved" people fell and the powerpoint wasn't weighted, but there was a climber in it anyways.

Yes. If you're not going to weight your anchor, switch them. Clip yourself to the shelf and belay from the bottom. I'm not switching from rope anchors to this, but so far, I actually think yours is one of the most interesting alternative rigs being bandied about. I even like it more than the equalette. I might play with a few knots other than the DFKs to get the same effect.


adatesman


Jun 4, 2008, 6:40 PM
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Partner j_ung


Jun 5, 2008, 6:29 AM
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Re: [adatesman] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll post up pics this afternoon.

I've been playing with a variation of spikeddem's anchor that I think might have some some potential. I used overhand follow-throughs instead of half DFKs and, at first, even though it eliminated the sliding problem of the original, I thought it looked pretty ugly. But when I put it on anchor points and began to see how it would work I found something interesting. I got a 2-strand master point and two -- TWO -- 2-strand shelves, which can be combined into one 4-strand shelf if you want it that way. All three attachment points, like above, equalize actively, smoothly and independently of each other within a few degrees.

The obvious downsides I saw were that, one, it takes a mighty long cordalette to make it versatile enough to be practical. And, two, same as before, you should probably pre-rig it before you leave the ground*. The un-obvious down side that might exist is that, when loading the shelves, it weights the knots weirdly, like a Euro death knot. But considering that there is no open end to the system, like with a standard EDK, even if it's an issue, it's probably not actually an issue.

Again, I'll get pics up later today. I also want to keep trying it with other knots to see if I can make it simpler.

*Insert Majid disclaimer.

Sorry, I never got 'round to it yesterday. Then this morning, I found my camera battery dead. Recharging now. Give me an hour or so.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jun 6, 2008, 5:09 AM)


spikeddem


Jun 5, 2008, 1:42 PM
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Re: [j_ung] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:
To the OP- I've got a week at the beach coming up, where I'm planning on doing pull/drop testing on a bunch of different anchor rigs and added yours to the list (I hate the beach).

-a.

Ooh! It's like a competition! Are we taking bets?? Sly I'll be interested in hearing the results. :)

j_ung wrote:
I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll post up pics this afternoon.

I've been playing with a variation of spikeddem's anchor that I think might have some some potential. I used overhand follow-throughs instead of half DFKs and, at first, even though it eliminated the sliding problem of the original, I thought it looked pretty ugly. But when I put it on anchor points and began to see how it would work I found something interesting. I got a 2-strand master point and two -- TWO -- 2-strand shelves, which can be combined into one 4-strand shelf if you want it that way. All three attachment points, like above, equalize actively, smoothly and independently of each other within a few degrees.

The obvious downsides I saw were that, one, it takes a mighty long cordalette to make it versatile enough to be practical. And, two, same as before, you should probably pre-rig it before you leave the ground*. The un-obvious down side that might exist is that, when loading the shelves, it weights the knots weirdly, like a Euro death knot. But considering that there is no open end to the system, like with a standard EDK, even if it's an issue, it's probably not actually an issue.

Again, I'll get pics up later today. I also want to keep trying it with other knots to see if I can make it simpler.

*Insert Majid disclaimer.

Sounds interesting; I'll have to see the pictures of it whenever you get around to putting them up.

With my original set-up, if only the masterpoint was loaded/clipped into, then there seemed to be no sliding problem (although not properly/formerly tested). I'm sure I'll better understand your set-up once I see it and build it for myself.


qqac


Jun 5, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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Unless I'm tying it differently, I think your original rig does slide. What I'm finding is that two strands of the powerpoint slide trough the left side DF knot, and the other two strands of the powerpoint slide through the right side DF knot. It's just that with the friction from the DF knots, the powerpoint loop doesn't slide under relatively low loads, such as the impromptu hand-foot pull test. With higher loads, the two DF knots may pull together with the sliding and shortening of the top two strands in the powerpoint loop. The positive here is that this sliding would help absorb/dispel energy; the negative is that the sliding through the DF knots would create heat and friction from that energy, weakening the DF knots and potentially cutting them from inside. As you say, testing would answer those questions.


(This post was edited by qqac on Jun 5, 2008, 2:16 PM)


adatesman


Jun 5, 2008, 2:55 PM
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moose_droppings


Jun 5, 2008, 3:03 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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Though this works, IMO the triple stranded power point one works just as well (pretied) and uses a little less cord. As with all these four legged anchors I've seen, once the PP is pulled to one side or the other, your only equalizing on two pieces.

But Jay's put a little option to it, though I'd opt for cascading sliding x's with limiter knots if I wanted four equalized pieces. Maybe with time all that rigging might become easier and more familar to do in a reasonable time frame.


spikeddem


Jun 5, 2008, 3:06 PM
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Re: [adatesman] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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Haha adatesman. I'm so jealous of all your pull-testing gear!


reno


Jun 5, 2008, 4:42 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] hopefully not Tufa King Much III (equalette-esque anchor) [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
failure = fall = death = your stuff on ebay

Which makes it different from every other anchor how, exactly?

You really don't understand much, do you?


shimanilami


Jun 5, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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This thread - and any thread with "Equallette" in the title, for that matter - is a joke.

Equallette's are for noobs who spend way too much time by themselves practicing knots, consulting Falcon guides and other noobs, and NOT CLIMBING. One weekend in the Valley will teach you that these are a waste of time. (Actually, it took me zero weekends.)

Seriously. WTF? Don't you have anything better to do?


spikeddem


Jun 5, 2008, 5:05 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
This thread - and any thread with "Equallette" in the title, for that matter - is a joke.

Equallette's are for noobs who spend way too much time by themselves practicing knots, consulting Falcon guides and other noobs, and NOT CLIMBING. One weekend in the Valley will teach you that these are a waste of time. (Actually, it took me zero weekends.)

Seriously. WTF? Don't you have anything better to do?

Take a look outside my window, and you will see: No, I do not.


shimanilami


Jun 5, 2008, 5:08 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
This thread - and any thread with "Equallette" in the title, for that matter - is a joke.

Equallette's are for noobs who spend way too much time by themselves practicing knots, consulting Falcon guides and other noobs, and NOT CLIMBING. One weekend in the Valley will teach you that these are a waste of time. (Actually, it took me zero weekends.)

Seriously. WTF? Don't you have anything better to do?

Take a look outside my window, and you will see: No, I do not.

Me neither. But ripping on RC.com posters is a lot more fun than working.


spikeddem


Jun 5, 2008, 5:09 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
This thread - and any thread with "Equallette" in the title, for that matter - is a joke.

Equallette's are for noobs who spend way too much time by themselves practicing knots, consulting Falcon guides and other noobs, and NOT CLIMBING. One weekend in the Valley will teach you that these are a waste of time. (Actually, it took me zero weekends.)

Seriously. WTF? Don't you have anything better to do?

Take a look outside my window, and you will see: No, I do not.

Me neither. But ripping on RC.com posters is a lot more fun than working.

Fair enough, bro. Laugh


Partner j_ung


Jun 6, 2008, 7:16 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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Okay, here you go.

1. Tie 2 overhands near the middle of the cordalette about 12 inches apart.



2. Follow both of them through with their opposing loops.





3. Here it is on four anchor points, sort of showing the master point and 2 shelves pointing off in all different directions with biners simply sliding along the double strands. Other than from the anchor points, no X-ing is needed, since you're really clipping to a closed loop anyway. This makes for effortless, effective and independent equalization of the three points, with the system as a whole equalizing toward whichever one has the most weight applied to it. When working with a 3-point anchor system, simply tie the single arm off short, as shown above in my first post.



Once this thing is pre-tied, setting it up is very quick and easy. If you were to carry one of these, though, you'd probably want a longer cordalette. This one was tied with about a 20-foot cord and it still isn't long enough. I think a 26' section would do.

I kind of want to call this a "double helix" or a "DNA" alluding to how it looks after it's tied, but maybe a spikey-J is more apropriate. Wink


reg


Jun 6, 2008, 8:22 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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j_ung, is this a serious effort on your part? because 1) maybe i'm missing something - do we really need another thing ah majid (i mean "majig")?
2) it's begginning to look like a CF


adatesman


Jun 6, 2008, 8:38 AM
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Partner epoch
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Jun 6, 2008, 8:41 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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This thread is becoming something that would fit well in the Lab. Let's see where this goes.


adatesman


Jun 6, 2008, 8:45 AM
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Partner epoch
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Jun 6, 2008, 8:47 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Equallette with 4 strand powerpoint [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:
That's where the original thread the OP split this from was, so it would make sense (to me at least) that this thread be there as well. Maybe think about moving it?

-a.
That's what I was thinking. J_ung's creation of the Lab was about the time of the origional equalett thread.

Done.

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