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kyle.woz
Jun 16, 2008, 6:48 PM
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This might be a dumb question but it'd be good to know. With a 60m rope can you belay and top rope a climb over 100'? Does rope stretch play a factor? Thanks for the help.
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kennoyce
Jun 16, 2008, 6:58 PM
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sure you can, you can do a climb up to 200 feet in length as long as there is a walk off. You just have the leader climb to the top, and then belay from the top, If there is no walk off, then two ropes will be required to rapell off. as to the rope stretch question, yes rope stretch could possibly allow you to do a climb up to like 105 feet in length, but make sure you tie a knot in the end of the belay side of the rope so that you don't drop your second on their ass when you lower off.
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zirollim
Jun 16, 2008, 7:47 PM
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You can definitely belay from above on a climb up to 200' in length, but at that point you lose much of the safety and simplicity of toproping. Communication would be difficult if not impossible, rope drag could be an issue, and if the route wanders at all, swinging could also be an issue.
I would say that up to 100' you'd be fine with a 60 meter rope, but certainly knot your ends and make sure the rope at least grazes the ground before you start climbing!
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anykineclimb
Jun 16, 2008, 9:05 PM
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zirollim wrote: You can definitely belay from above on a climb up to 200' in length, but at that point you lose much of the safety and simplicity of toproping.
Belaying from above IS toproping!
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summerprophet
Jun 16, 2008, 9:20 PM
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Kyle,
I will try to sum up what has been allready said.
Assuming you are only toproping and have no lead climbing experience, toproping a climb over 100 feet tall is possible, but difficult.
If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay.
Another option is to have the belayer at a higher position than the start of the climb. If the climb is on a slope, or if there are tiered ledges you can safely scramble up.
Another option is called a "Top down belay" in which the belayer hangs out at the top of the climb and belays just as you would top roping except, instead of being at the bottom of the climb, he is just a few feet from the anchor.
Obviously, these are all difficult to comprehend on a computer screen, it would be better if you could have someone explain them too you firsthand.
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hafilax
Jun 16, 2008, 9:27 PM
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1m=3.28 feet so 60m=197 feet
I hate it when people mix units. Why don't Americans just call it a 200' rope instead of asking if they can climb 200' with a 60m rope?
Remember that a figure 8 takes up about 1m of rope so with 2 people tied in that's 2m or 6.6'.
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stymingersfink
Jun 16, 2008, 9:34 PM
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hafilax wrote: 1m=3.28 feet so 60m=197 feet I hate it when people mix units. Why don't Americans just call it a 200' rope instead of asking if they can climb 200' with a 60m rope? Remember that a figure 8 takes up about 1m of rope so with 2 people tied in that's 2m or 6.6'.
Perhaps another reason for cutting them just a little long it to account for the tendency of the rope to shorten as it gets older, IDK.
It's like my middle-mark... it's not in the PRECISE middle, but it's close enough to work with. Who's worried about a foot or two either way?
FTR? If the OP really needs to ask, it's probably better if he works under the close supervision of a competent climber for a season or two than rely on building his skill-set from the ennertoobs.
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GeneralBenson
Jun 16, 2008, 11:33 PM
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summerprophet wrote: If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay.
Are you serious? Like seriously, you're serious?
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jmvc
Jun 17, 2008, 12:37 PM
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GeneralBenson wrote: summerprophet wrote: If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay. Are you serious? Like seriously, you're serious?
I seriously don't know if he's serious or not, but for the benefit of kyle: just keep the knot on one side of the anchor, and TR normally..
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swaghole
Jun 17, 2008, 3:21 PM
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jmvc wrote: I seriously don't know if he's serious or not, but for the benefit of kyle: just keep the knot on one side of the anchor, and TR normally..
Following your logic, you still have to deal with the knot going throught the belay device.
i.e. if the climb you are top-ropping is 150' and the ropes you tie measures 200' each, you'll only be able to belay for 50' before the knot reaches your belay device.
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justroberto
Jun 17, 2008, 4:27 PM
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GeneralBenson wrote: summerprophet wrote: If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay. Are you serious? Like seriously, you're serious?
Dan Osman tied ropes together and jumped several hundred feet on them over and over again, and you don't think a knot will hold the mighty forces from a toprope "fall"?
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GeneralBenson
Jun 17, 2008, 4:38 PM
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justroberto wrote: GeneralBenson wrote: summerprophet wrote: If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay. Are you serious? Like seriously, you're serious? Dan Osman tied ropes together and jumped several hundred feet on them over and over again, and you don't think a knot will hold the mighty forces from a toprope "fall"?
A) Dan Osman died.
B) I was referring to the whole belay transition from person to person, or having to pass a knot through your belay device.
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jmvc
Jun 17, 2008, 4:41 PM
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swaghole wrote: jmvc wrote: I seriously don't know if he's serious or not, but for the benefit of kyle: just keep the knot on one side of the anchor, and TR normally.. Following your logic, you still have to deal with the knot going throught the belay device. i.e. if the climb you are top-ropping is 150' and the ropes you tie measures 200' each, you'll only be able to belay for 50' before the knot reaches your belay device.
Errm.. no. Think about it.
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swaghole
Jun 17, 2008, 4:42 PM
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Damn. I can't see it. Can't Majjid draw up a diagram?
Edit: with the belayer at the bottom.
(This post was edited by swaghole on Jun 17, 2008, 4:45 PM)
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justroberto
Jun 17, 2008, 6:17 PM
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swaghole wrote: Damn. I can't see it. Can't Majjid draw up a diagram? Edit: with the belayer at the bottom.
If it's more than a couple of feet longer than 100 feet and you want to climb the entire thing, you tie the ropes together, pull the knot up to the master point, and tie in to the rope so that the knot is on the belayer's side of master point, not the climber. The climber will be tying in where the rope hits level with his waist, not at the very end as you normally would. This way, when he reaches the anchor, the knot should be right at the belayer's device.
If the climber ties into the end of the rope, the knot will reach his belayer before he reaches the anchor, and he'll have to pass the knot somehow, or have another person take over the belay above the knot.
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justroberto
Jun 17, 2008, 6:23 PM
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GeneralBenson wrote: justroberto wrote: GeneralBenson wrote: summerprophet wrote: If you have two ropes, you can tie them together, and toprope safely. If you do this though, make the climber tie in where the rope reaches the ground, not at the end of the rope,..... this or have two belayers, who can transfer belays, once the knot reaches the belay. Are you serious? Like seriously, you're serious? Dan Osman tied ropes together and jumped several hundred feet on them over and over again, and you don't think a knot will hold the mighty forces from a toprope "fall"? A) Dan Osman died.
Yes, after countless successful jumps, all of which exerted far larger forces on dynamic ropes knotted together. Tying them together and toproping is more equivalent to the forces from performing a double rope rap, a perfectly safe and acceptable practice.
In reply to: B) I was referring to the whole belay transition from person to person, or having to pass a knot through your belay device.
If you figure it out, you won't have to transition around the knot. See my above post.
Edited to say: You can try this out on a smaller scale with a cord or shoelaces, etc, in the comfort of your own home
(This post was edited by justroberto on Jun 17, 2008, 6:25 PM)
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jmvc
Jun 17, 2008, 10:37 PM
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I'm somewhat drunk now, but I think the second of justrobertos explanations is what I'm thinking of..
That way, you can climb half the length of your tied ropes, much the same as if you used just one long one, just involves a touch more care as to what end you rig your device on.
Ps: I've never tried this, but with an edk and a fig 8 (one of my favorite devices, yeah flame me) could you perhaps just ram it through? Assuming system is not wheighted of course..
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GeneralBenson
Jun 18, 2008, 4:32 PM
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jmvc wrote: I'm somewhat drunk now, but I think the second of justrobertos explanations is what I'm thinking of.. That way, you can climb half the length of your tied ropes, much the same as if you used just one long one, just involves a touch more care as to what end you rig your device on. Ps: I've never tried this, but with an edk and a fig 8 (one of my favorite devices, yeah flame me) could you perhaps just ram it through? Assuming system is not wheighted of course..
You could pass the knot no problems with a hip belay. Problem solved.
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ptlong
Jun 18, 2008, 4:39 PM
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If you first seperate the sheath and core strands and then tie them together you can easily slingshot toprope routes of 200' or more.
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GeneralBenson
Jun 18, 2008, 4:41 PM
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ptlong wrote: If you first seperate the sheath and core strands and then tie them together you can easily slingshot toprope routes of 200' or more.
Is my gri-gri rated for that diameter?
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jmvc
Jun 19, 2008, 10:55 AM
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GeneralBenson wrote: ptlong wrote: If you first seperate the sheath and core strands and then tie them together you can easily slingshot toprope routes of 200' or more. Is my gri-gri rated for that diameter?
Grigris can do anything, including belaying for you.
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rightarmbad
Jun 19, 2008, 12:53 PM
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Well, if you simulclimb, you would both be on belay and you could go untill you go to sleep or reach the top of the longest pitch on earth.......
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the_climber
Jun 19, 2008, 4:14 PM
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zirollim wrote: You can definitely belay from above on a climb up to 200' in length, but at that point you lose much of the safety and simplicity of toproping.
You do realize that if the rope is above you, you ARE on toprope right?
Just checking, cause a belay at the top of the climb is safe and simple.
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carbonrx8
Jun 19, 2008, 4:46 PM
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justroberto wrote: swaghole wrote: Damn. I can't see it. Can't Majjid draw up a diagram? Edit: with the belayer at the bottom. If it's more than a couple of feet longer than 100 feet and you want to climb the entire thing, you tie the ropes together, pull the knot up to the master point, and tie in to the rope so that the knot is on the belayer's side of master point, not the climber. The climber will be tying in where the rope hits level with his waist, not at the very end as you normally would. This way, when he reaches the anchor, the knot should be right at the belayer's device.
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AlexCV
Jun 19, 2008, 5:28 PM
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You could make a large bight with a butterfly knot and then girth hitch it to your tie-in points. The default knot would be a bowline on a bight, overhand backup and then clip the bight to the belay loop with a locker.
That being said, I use a butterfly and two lockers gates opposed/reversed. It's a top-rope...
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