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redpoint73
Jun 3, 2008, 4:57 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I did not say if they can hold that much forces or not but wire vs webbing ( like what he shows). webbing wins every time.
That's not what he shows at all.
I'll take the slung horn anytime. The nut is being held by a very small bridge of rock, and probably not very strong.
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krusher4
Jun 3, 2008, 5:05 PM
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on sandstone I would take the horn.
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gt29905
Jun 3, 2008, 5:11 PM
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Thanks for answering.
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climb_eng
Jun 3, 2008, 6:22 PM
Post #29 of 54
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jman wrote: If I had to choose only one I'd take the horn. Assuming this is high enough where the majority of load from a fall is vertical, IMO there just seems to be more rock at the horn to withstand the force.
I'd like somebody with a bit of experience to speak to this, but I've always been nervous using horns and huecos as pro. When using a nut, or a cam the rock must take a lot of compressive force, but a relatively low tensile force. On the other hand with a horn, I picture a lot more sheer stress and tensile stress in the rock, and a lower amount of compressive stress.
Well, hard materials such a stone are FAR more likely to fail in sheer/tension then in compression. Isn't therefore your risk that you'll pull the horn off much higher then your risk that a good piece of pro will fail? Is it not the way the rock is stressed rather then the amount of rock that matters?
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2008, 6:29 PM
Post #30 of 54
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I'd drop the biggest hex on my rack into the top of that slot on the right and just keep on chugging. Looks like a picture-perfect hex placement.
If all my hexes were too small, I'd thread the horn.
Third choice - cam in one of those cracks.
GO
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bigredscowboy
Jun 3, 2008, 6:43 PM
Post #31 of 54
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CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal.
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2008, 6:48 PM
Post #32 of 54
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jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole you do the math don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs. You can unquestionably generate 7 kN of force on an anchor in a lead fall. Jay
so getting back to your question
In reply to: Ok, but should I divide or subtract?
if you could generate 7 kn during fall and your best nut is rated to let's say 10 kn then we subtract 7kn from 18 and I go for the webbing on any days.
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fulton
Jun 3, 2008, 7:11 PM
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The horn looks good, but the rigging is sloppy. I'm glad to see you didn't girth hitch the horn, but I'd use the "basket" technique with a 'draw on it instead of knotting webbing. The basket technique will also double the amount of material against the rock -- it will not make it more redundant, just distributed different--better I think.
And clearly, with the crack and the horn right next to the nut placement, it is comparatively junk.
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russwalling
Jun 3, 2008, 7:12 PM
Post #34 of 54
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I think someone should place a bolt there. Neither placement looks as good as a big shiny bolt.
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knieveltech
Jun 3, 2008, 7:35 PM
Post #35 of 54
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russwalling wrote: I think someone should place a bolt there. Neither placement looks as good as a big shiny bolt.
Only in WV...
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dr_feelgood
Jun 3, 2008, 8:25 PM
Post #36 of 54
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Clip a screamer to either one and I'll whip onto them.
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morlebeke
Jun 3, 2008, 8:35 PM
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how can anyone want to trust that nut placement? someone had it right before, it's a joke to place that for your second to laugh at. with such a thin bridge, and like the _eng said earlier rock is great in compression similar to concrete, but you're not only shearing that bridge but putting bending moments in so that'll crack before you even get above that piece if you fell on it I'd guess. maybe it's thicker than it looks... but the highest stress area will be in the bottom of the cross section of that bridge in tensile load only. there's a reason they put steel in a concrete bridge, for the tensile strength.
I'd also girth hitch the horn, quicker more than anything, and simple to clean.
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AlexCV
Jun 3, 2008, 8:37 PM
Post #38 of 54
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bigredscowboy wrote: CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal.
My thought exactly. Looks like Anything blue to red could fit and it's nicely featured.
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climb_eng
Jun 3, 2008, 8:49 PM
Post #39 of 54
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morlebeke wrote: how can anyone want to trust that nut placement? someone had it right before, it's a joke to place that for your second to laugh at. with such a thin bridge, and like the _eng said earlier rock is great in compression similar to concrete, but you're not only shearing that bridge but putting bending moments in so that'll crack before you even get above that piece if you fell on it I'd guess. maybe it's thicker than it looks... but the highest stress area will be in the bottom of the cross section of that bridge in tensile load only. there's a reason they put steel in a concrete bridge, for the tensile strength. I'd also girth hitch the horn, quicker more than anything, and simple to clean.
I wasn't really commenting on THAT nut placement. I was thinking more generally. Given a GOOD nut to a horn, I'd just much rather trust the nut.
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socalclimber
Jun 4, 2008, 4:15 AM
Post #42 of 54
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"I now realize that I need to spot several, if not all, possibilities and target the best for that point in the climb. If I am sketched, the first one might be really attractive. Sometimes, that is the best choice - the one you can get in. I was far from sketched on this 5.6, so I can only plead temporary placement blindness. "
Glad you are "seeing the light". Dingus hit on the tunnel vision problem. I think it should be expanded beyound a bit. One of the things I do when I lead is to take advantage of the easier spots on a route. If I have a good stance, I stop, take a breather, and then do my best to try and evaluate what's coming up. This includes gear I might want ready without searching for it, where the route goes, loose rock or bad flakes etc. Also, I get the added advantage that I get to rest. The last thing in the world you want is to be tired, scared, and desperate regreting that you didn't take a break when you had the chance. That's when tunnel vision can really set in.
Good for you on taking the time to do some analysis on your gear placements.
Robert
Blindness be gone!
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curt
Jun 4, 2008, 5:43 AM
Post #43 of 54
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healyje wrote: If there was nothing else I'd take the nut - but in this case in an either / or situation I'd take the slung horn every time. if I was worried about the sling on the horn I'd do both and make the nut sacrificial loading a bit before the horn.
Agreed.
Curt
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spoon
Jun 4, 2008, 6:33 AM
Post #44 of 54
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You're all wrong. The obvious solution, as any 13 year old gym bred sport climber can tell you, is to just clip that hole directly with a nice short quick draw. Ideally it would be wiregate to minimize gate whiplash. I mean come on people, safety first.
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yokese
Jun 4, 2008, 7:17 AM
Post #45 of 54
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If the answer has to be one or the other (no hexes, tricams, cams, bolts, screamers, equalization, ladders, pads, etc), I'll choose the horn any time, even rigged as depicted.
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evanwish
Jun 4, 2008, 11:25 PM
Post #46 of 54
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majid_sabet wrote: 18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole you do the math
i'm not suggesting anything here... just wondering...
how strong is the "Jammed knot" trick??
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happiegrrrl
Jun 17, 2008, 1:35 PM
Post #47 of 54
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AlexCV wrote: bigredscowboy wrote: CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal. My thought exactly. Looks like Anything blue to red could fit and it's nicely featured.
Me too. I'd a gone for my brown tricam first, judging from the photo, saving Lucky Red for later. But Dingus is right; there's something satisfying about lassoing rock.
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bigfatrock
Jun 25, 2008, 8:09 PM
Post #48 of 54
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I am pretty new to trad, but I would definitely take that horn as long as it didn't sound hollow. But as some indicated it does look like there is a place in the crack to the right and the horizontal to the left.
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getout87
Jun 25, 2008, 8:28 PM
Post #49 of 54
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Registered: Dec 30, 2007
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Just don't fall and you don't have to worry about it.
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stymingersfink
Jun 26, 2008, 4:17 AM
Post #50 of 54
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know what I'd do?
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