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whiskeykid
Jun 22, 2008, 5:57 PM
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Last summer I started using a counterweight haul while solo aiding longer projects in an attempt to speed things up. In the past I had avoided this technique due uneasy feelings about hanging the haul bag on the station with a fifi hook. After practicing it a few times at home though I figured I'd give it a try in both Squamish and Zion and it worked great! Turns out that it's not as sketchy as it sounds, and the chance of the 150+lb haul bag somehow getting accidentally lifted the couple inches necessary to unhook the fifi is almost impossible.
Anyhow, I'm going over some notes from last season in anticipation of another solo trip this summer and have revisited this setup. Has anyone who uses this system successfully addressed the 'what happens if the haul bag falls off the anchor' theory? Of course my fear is that the bag screams earthward, eventually reaches the end of the haul line and either pulls me off the climb entirely, or tears my harness in half. Best case scenario is that the loop I have the haul line attached to simply tears off my harness and I lose the bag. Worst case is that I'm reunited with the splattered bag on the ground!
I use a yates big wall harness so I think that the gear loops are all full strength, so I was considering building a small runner that's girth hitched to my harness but built to tear away at a couple hundred pounds? Or maybe a screamer?
Or maybe I should stop worrying about it? Does anyone know if this has ever actually happened to someone?
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stymingersfink
Jun 22, 2008, 6:50 PM
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You might hang if from a FIFI, sure, but anyone with ANY wall experience would also consider it prudent to tether it long to your anchor as well, such that were you to whip you would be able to extricate yourself from the situation without having to fix your lead line, down-jug your lead line and re-set your counterweight.
The fact that you even have to ask this question indicates to me that you have overlooked this small but VERY important detail in the past, and I am glad that it has not caused you any significant problem.
It's my guess that you should probably go back over PTPP's posts to find where you got such an idea, and figure out what details you may have missed from his posts.
It is not necessary to hang your haul-bag from a fifi to create this "counterweight" potential, merely dock your haul bags to the bottom of a longish PP which will allow your bags to lift a couple of feet were you to experience a hard fall. First, attach your lead line to the main anchor PP, then give yourself enough slack to lift the bags as high as you need (which would be the limit of the haul-anchor PP's upward motion in the event of a fall), clip an alpine butterfly to a locker somewhere at your swivel, then lead on from there (trying to ensure you don't FF2 onto your hauling anchor!)
once you reach your new top anchor, you will then set your haul (with enough free end to facilitate beginning your haul later), rap the haul line back to the anchor, pull the haul taut, tie a butterfly, attach to the locker at the top of your swivel, unclip the lead line from your "counterweight", then undock the bags while utilizing the remaining haul line to effect a lower-out of the load if it is necessary.
Jug and clean your lead, arrive at top anchor, then haul the pigs, docking them once again to a longish PP to allow upward movement if this is your method of choice.
If you were using JUST a fifi to dock your bags, in the event it becomes freely hanging from the bottom of your lead line, you will need to have your pulley down there to reset your "counterweight". If this has been the case, I certainly hope that you attach your lead to the anchor BEFORE you have been attaching it to your pigs.
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whiskeykid
Jun 22, 2008, 7:33 PM
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We're talking two different things. I'm not setting up to use my haulbag in 'shock absorber' mode, to take some of the force out of a fall, I'm using the three rope system. I have a lead line and tag two lines: one is the rap line that's stacked in rope bag at the anchor, one is my haul line that's tied to my bag that's docked with a fifi (and the slack is also stacked in a rope bag). When I complete a pitch I tie off my lead line and my rap line, I set up my haul and pull the slack out of the haul line, then I use an alpine butterfly to attach my haul line to myself and rap down. The bag is lifted off the dock and is hauled while I rappel the pitch. It only works if the bag stays less than about 75% of my body weight. If my bag gets hung up somewhere I can just unclip my haul line, finish rapping, and eitheer set up a far end hauler or free the bag, clean the pitch, and finish hauling traditionally.
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stymingersfink
Jun 22, 2008, 7:53 PM
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whiskeykid wrote: We're talking two different things. I'm not setting up to use my haulbag in 'shock absorber' mode, to take some of the force out of a fall, I'm using the three rope system. I have a lead line and tag two lines: one is the rap line that's stacked in rope bag at the anchor, one is my haul line that's tied to my bag that's docked with a fifi (and the slack is also stacked in a rope bag). When I complete a pitch I tie off my lead line and my rap line, I set up my haul and pull the slack out of the haul line, then I use an alpine butterfly to attach my haul line to myself and rap down. The bag is lifted off the dock and is hauled while I rappel the pitch. It only works if the bag stays less than about 75% of my body weight. If my bag gets hung up somewhere I can just unclip my haul line, finish rapping, and eitheer set up a far end hauler or free the bag, clean the pitch, and finish hauling traditionally.
Do you set up the haul line in a rope bag at the pigs so you only pull it out as it becomes necessary then? What about your rap line... similar setup, but with the tail tied off to the anchor in case you need to pull yourself back in?
What do you do if you've got such a load that body-hauling on the rap is not feasible?
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whiskeykid
Jun 22, 2008, 8:12 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: Do you set up the haul line in a rope bag at the pigs so you only pull it out as it becomes necessary then? What about your rap line... similar setup, but with the tail tied off to the anchor in case you need to pull yourself back in? What do you do if you've got such a load that body-hauling on the rap is not feasible?
You got'er. I have one of those Fish snakecharmer rope bags, with two huge compartments. I stack the rap and haul lines simultaneously in one compartment (so they pay out together) and the lead line in the other compartment. And yes, I have the rap line tied to the anchor so I can reel myself in with an ascender if I'm coming down from a pitch that's overhanging or traversing.
If I have too large a load to body-haul I just use two ropes, lead and haul, and I set it up more traditionally: lead, rap, lower out the bag(s), clean, haul. It's nice to be able to body-haul though, it saves lots of time over a few pitches.
Unfortunately though, there's still the issue of being tied to the haul bag that isn't securely fastened to the anchor. Back to the original question then: does anyone use this system, and has anyone thought of a way not to be killed if the pig was somehow knocked off the anchor!!??
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stymingersfink
Jun 22, 2008, 8:21 PM
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whiskeykid wrote: stymingersfink wrote: Do you set up the haul line in a rope bag at the pigs so you only pull it out as it becomes necessary then? What about your rap line... similar setup, but with the tail tied off to the anchor in case you need to pull yourself back in? What do you do if you've got such a load that body-hauling on the rap is not feasible? You got'er. I have one of those Fish snakecharmer rope bags, with two huge compartments. I stack the rap and haul lines simultaneously in one compartment (so they pay out together) and the lead line in the other compartment. And yes, I have the rap line tied to the anchor so I can reel myself in with an ascender if I'm coming down from a pitch that's overhanging or traversing. If I have too large a load to body-haul I just use two ropes, lead and haul, and I set it up more traditionally: lead, rap, lower out the bag(s), clean, haul. It's nice to be able to body-haul though, it saves lots of time over a few pitches. Unfortunately though, there's still the issue of being tied to the haul bag that isn't securely fastened to the anchor. Back to the original question then: does anyone use this system, and has anyone thought of a way not to be killed if the pig was somehow knocked off the anchor!!??
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whiskeykid
Jun 22, 2008, 10:40 PM
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Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke.
Thanks.
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woland84
Jun 22, 2008, 10:57 PM
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whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks.
every screamer will actually break, pull harder.
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stymingersfink
Jun 22, 2008, 11:03 PM
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woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder.
The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs.
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kevinhansen
Jun 22, 2008, 11:13 PM
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whiskeykid wrote: stymingersfink wrote: Do you set up the haul line in a rope bag at the pigs so you only pull it out as it becomes necessary then? I stack the rap and haul lines simultaneously in one compartment (so they pay out together).
Why lead with 3 lines pulling down on you? If you tied your rap line and haul line end to end, then stack the haul line below the rap line, you could pull the haul line up at the top.
whiskeykid wrote: Unfortunately though, there's still the issue of being tied to the haul bag that isn't securely fastened to the anchor.
In the future some electrical engineer will take up big wall soloing and he will invent a remote opperated release gadget. From the top of the pitch you can push a button and this little number will release the load, and its internal spool will lower out the pigs and itself for you. It will cost $500 and you'll not be able to buy it anywhere. (I teach at the high school and I'm sure someone will grab this idea and make hundreds of dollars off of it. LOL Seriously, I forsee digital remote opperated stuff making its way into our gear racks in the future.)
I've body hauled before, but only on the first pitch. Above that it's PTPP's continuous loop method and regular hauling the old way.
Then I got to thinking, if a 70 meter rope is good for linking short pitches together, why not do the same for hauling? This year I'm trying a new idea. I bought a 400 foot (122 meter) haul line. That way I can haul a lot less often. Imagine hauling 2 or 3 times a day rather than every pitch. Time will tell if I've chosen poorly.
Kevin
I'm interested in this thread and its a very good question. I've asked myself this same question before too.
[I live 1 hour from Zion and partners are scarce. Drop me a line if your in the neighborhood.]
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woland84
Jun 22, 2008, 11:16 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder. Yes, but with the exception of the scream-aid they are all rated at near-full strength when fully deployed. The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs.
yea I know, the above post was not intended to be helpful in any way whatsoever. thanks for trying to be helpful though.
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stymingersfink
Jun 22, 2008, 11:27 PM
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woland84 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder. Yes, but with the exception of the scream-aid they are all rated at near-full strength when fully deployed. The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs. yea I know, the above post was not intended to be helpful in any way whatsoever. thanks for trying to be helpful though.
STFU, n00b!
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kevinhansen
Jun 22, 2008, 11:29 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder. Yes, but with the exception of the scream-aid they are all rated at near-full strength when fully deployed. The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs.
Couldn't a shoelace work just as well? Seriously buy some 2-3 MM cord (heck dental floss!) and tie it to your tail. Make sure you clip your haul line into it and your off. I bet its failure strength is <200 lbs. You should do some testing before hand. Wouldn't want it to fail prematurly.
I'm cooking up something you all are going to get a good laugh at. It'll be a way to securly dock the pigs so you can use them as your belay weight, yet still release them remotely.
Stay tuned.. get ready to chuckel.
Kevin
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woland84
Jun 22, 2008, 11:35 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder. Yes, but with the exception of the scream-aid they are all rated at near-full strength when fully deployed. The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs. yea I know, the above post was not intended to be helpful in any way whatsoever. thanks for trying to be helpful though. well then... STFU, n00b!
f*ck off. being a asshole to people I dont know and dont give a shit about is what the rc.com forums, and most of the internet, is for.
(This post was edited by woland84 on Jun 22, 2008, 11:53 PM)
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stymingersfink
Jun 23, 2008, 12:34 AM
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woland84 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: woland84 wrote: whiskeykid wrote: Oh. That's exactly what I need! I thought of a screamer but didn't realize they made ones that actually broke. Thanks. every screamer will actually break, pull harder. Yes, but with the exception of the scream-aid they are all rated at near-full strength when fully deployed. The scream-aid is pretty much guaranteed to break around 1000lbs. yea I know, the above post was not intended to be helpful in any way whatsoever. thanks for trying to be helpful though. well then... STFU, n00b! f*ck off. being a asshole to people I dont know and dont give a shit about is what the rc.com forums, and most of the internet, is for.
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whiskeykid
Jun 23, 2008, 12:52 AM
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woland84 wrote: every screamer will actually break, pull harder.
Ah, but doesn't everything? I checked out the scream-aids, I think they're still a wee bit tough. 4000lbs still equals a nasty pull. Maybe I'll just hold my haul line in my teeth...
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whiskeykid
Jun 23, 2008, 12:57 AM
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kevinhansen wrote: Why lead with 3 lines pulling down on you? If you tied your rap line and haul line end to end, then stack the haul line below the rap line, you could pull the haul line up at the top.
Good idea in theory I think, but 'hand over handing' 200ft of rope every pitch doesn't seem nearly as easy as just pulling it up as you go, IMO.
(This post was edited by whiskeykid on Jun 23, 2008, 12:58 AM)
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stymingersfink
Jun 23, 2008, 2:18 AM
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whiskeykid wrote: kevinhansen wrote: Why lead with 3 lines pulling down on you? If you tied your rap line and haul line end to end, then stack the haul line below the rap line, you could pull the haul line up at the top. Good idea in theory I think, but 'hand over handing' 200ft of rope every pitch doesn't seem nearly as easy as just pulling it up as you go, IMO. 
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whiskeykid
Jun 23, 2008, 3:24 AM
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I've got dozens of those little accessory biners to rack stuff in my haul bag. Maybe I'll just clip the haul line on to my harness with one of them. Or swag a loop of 3/32" cable around my haul loop, that would probably only hold 5-600 pounds. The shoelace idea would probably work fine too...
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doz
Jun 23, 2008, 4:23 AM
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Take a scream aid and cut in half at the fold where the stitching ends-they deploy at 1.5kN still one hell of a jerk but it should leave you on the wall.
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russwalling
Jun 23, 2008, 5:32 AM
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Don't ever do a metal to nylon interface. That cable will cut your webbing for sure.
Use a tieoff, a shoelace, a home depot biner, some velcro, 3mm, anything but cable.
The fifi method you talk about is good, fast, and works. Use two fifi hooks. The bag coming off the anchor seems like a very very unlikely scenario, and if you use one of the breakaway methods above, you just might live through the one in 5 million catastrophe.
(This post was edited by russwalling on Jun 23, 2008, 5:33 AM)
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pmyche
Jun 23, 2008, 3:24 PM
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kevinhansen
Jun 23, 2008, 4:21 PM
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pmyche wrote: The price to pay for a FU speed hauling is too high for me, and I just don't want it continually in the back of my mind on lead. I'm over it.
I took up ultra-light backpacking for a time and have incorporated much of the same into my multi day climbs. Reasons for keeping the weight of the pig down is I like 1:1 hauling, I like being able to lift the pig @ the anchor with both hands if I have too, and I like to hike in and out once.
Maybe I like to pretend I'm light and fast, but the truth is I'm light and slow.
Kevin
[I might be slow but my work is poor]
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kevinhansen
Jun 24, 2008, 4:18 AM
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kevinhansen wrote: I'm cooking up something you all are going to get a good laugh at. It'll be a way to securly dock the pigs so you can use them as your belay weight, yet still release them remotely. Stay tuned.. get ready to chuckel. Kevin
OK sumerprophet;
As promised here you go all you would need is this thingy. If you print this off and take it to a machine shop you could hold the first of its kind. If you looking into mass producing this thing, talk to me first. Go to the bogley link below to see what it is. What would you call this thingy?
kevin
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=119295#119295
(This post was edited by kevinhansen on Jun 24, 2008, 4:24 AM)
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stymingersfink
Jun 24, 2008, 4:57 AM
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kevinhansen wrote: kevinhansen wrote: I'm cooking up something you all are going to get a good laugh at. It'll be a way to securly dock the pigs so you can use them as your belay weight, yet still release them remotely. Stay tuned.. get ready to chuckel. Kevin OK sumerprophet; As promised here you go all you would need is this thingy. If you print this off and take it to a machine shop you could hold the first of its kind. If you looking into mass producing this thing, talk to me first. Go to the bogley link below to see what it is. What would you call this thingy? kevin http://www.bogley.com/....php?p=119295#119295
Hmm. Interesting.
major idiot hasn't found that forum board yet. well, it's too late now, you've outed them.
nice going there kevin. 
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