Forums: Climbing Disciplines: Indoor Gyms:
Clipping into Belay Loop!!
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Indoor Gyms

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All


laanguiano


Jun 25, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #1 of 79 (6790 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 6, 2008
Posts: 49

Clipping into Belay Loop!!
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

So the gym near my house doesnt tie you into your harness with a figure 8 knot. They clip you in with a steel autolocking biner instead to your belay loop.

Any of your places do this? They dont even let me tie in correctly. Frustrates me cause now I dont want to take my own harness.


(This post was edited by laanguiano on Jun 25, 2008, 3:41 PM)


mheyman


Jun 25, 2008, 4:00 PM
Post #2 of 79 (6747 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607

Re: [laanguiano] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

laanguiano wrote:
So the gym near my house doesnt tie you into your harness with a figure 8 knot. They clip you in with a steel autolocking biner instead to your belay loop.

"My gym"

TR clip existing loop into two locking biners. Don't think they care if the biners are through leg and waist belt, or through bely loop.

Lead traditional knot tie in - 8, modified bowline...

In reply to:
Any of your places do this? They dont even let me tie in correctly. Frustrates me cause now I dont want to take my own harness.

Because?


dovaka


Jun 25, 2008, 4:57 PM
Post #3 of 79 (6697 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 6, 2001
Posts: 121

Re: [mheyman] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

ive only ever seen "mall" kind of places and those carnival towers do that
do they give you a reason for it or is it just because


shoo


Jun 25, 2008, 5:22 PM
Post #4 of 79 (6685 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501

Re: [dovaka] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Let's all get a little realistic here. Steel biners are ridiculously strong. Minor axis strength, usually the weakest, is usually above or around 10kn. You aren't going to go even close to the breaking strength of one of those pretty much no matter how hard you try in a gym. You aren't.

It's far faster to clip some guy in with a 'biner than it is to tie someone in properly. Slightly, less safe, granted, but far faster when you're dealing with large quantities of people.

I'm in the all-gyms-which-clip-you-in-with-'biner--instead-of-using-a-proper-knot-and-require-you-to-use-a-grigri-to-belay-because-it's-"safer"-so-you-don't-learn-how-to-properly-belay-or-tie-an-f'ing-knot-for-the-life-of-you-should-f***-off-and-die camp as much as the next guy. But seriously. It isn't going to break.


dovaka


Jun 25, 2008, 7:35 PM
Post #5 of 79 (6617 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 6, 2001
Posts: 121

Re: [shoo] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I dont think its really all that much less safe i just find a 1/2 pound biner flopping around annoying


bigwhitej


Jun 25, 2008, 8:13 PM
Post #6 of 79 (6595 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2007
Posts: 13

Re: [laanguiano] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.


uni_jim


Jun 25, 2008, 8:23 PM
Post #7 of 79 (6589 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 429

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

what the hell does that mean? What do you think is happening when you catch a fall with it? Are my quickdraws rated for a dynamic fall? How about the leg loops and swami on my harness?

about the TRing with a carabiner tie in, at the gym i go to, they use that on a couple of the ropes (the ones that have a grigri permanantly attached) but the have you tie in with a fig8 for most of the top rope, and all lead.


bigwhitej


Jun 25, 2008, 8:36 PM
Post #8 of 79 (6576 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2007
Posts: 13

Re: [uni_jim] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

What it means is that you always want to double up on everything you use when it is reasonable. If you clip into two loops that better than clipping into only one item and if you can eliminate the beaner you are elimanting one more item that could potentially fail. With your quickdraws you are relying on having multiple draws to hold you when you reach a hight that a fall would kill you. This is why there is always at least two bolts on TR routes and most sport routes.. Also with your loop not being rated for dynamic falls, the only real time that you really ever aply anywhere close to the force of a dynamic fall is when you are belaying a lead fall. the thing is that the is so much friction in the system your belay loop really does not receive the same force as the harness on the falling climber.


Partner angry


Jun 25, 2008, 8:42 PM
Post #9 of 79 (6568 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

That statement just made my evening. You're a funny dude, dude.


laanguiano


Jun 25, 2008, 8:42 PM
Post #10 of 79 (6568 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 6, 2008
Posts: 49

Re: [mheyman] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Id rather not take my own harness because 1) That will wear out your belay loop quicker, 2) The belay loop is designed to belay.. not take hard falls.

I'm not worried about it since I'm just TR'ing, but id rather not use improper technique in my harness. Ill save the mileage and wear out their belay loops instead.


shoo


Jun 25, 2008, 8:44 PM
Post #11 of 79 (6568 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

Laang, please direct yourself the manuals of virtually every harness manufacturer in the business as well as the numerous independent tests performed on the subject. Your statement is hopelessly misinformed.

Belay loops are probably the single burliest piece on your harness. They are made to withstand forces that would have killed you long before the loop would have broken a metaphorical sweat.

The real reason I hate gyms and organizations clipping in with carabiners and requiring belaying with gri-gris is because both practices encourage complacence. In the absence of proper knowledge and experience, which they are often used to replace, they are dangerous.

Edited to note: You are absolutely correct in that it is better to tie in properly rather than clip in with a carabiner. No disagreements there.

I disagree with your statement about wear. Rope-on-harness interaction will wear a harness far more than carabiner on rope except in those rare circumstances where the gate of the biner catches or something.


(This post was edited by shoo on Jun 25, 2008, 8:47 PM)


moose_droppings


Jun 25, 2008, 8:44 PM
Post #12 of 79 (6567 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

Thanks for the chuckle on an otherwise sad day.


stymingersfink


Jun 25, 2008, 9:00 PM
Post #13 of 79 (6554 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250

Re: [angry] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

angry wrote:
bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

That statement just made my evening. You'reThis is a funny dudethread, dude.


bigwhitej


Jun 26, 2008, 12:44 AM
Post #14 of 79 (6490 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2007
Posts: 13

Re: [stymingersfink] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.


sungam


Jun 26, 2008, 3:38 AM
Post #15 of 79 (6468 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26597

Re: [moose_droppings] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
bigwhitej wrote:
It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

Thanks for the chuckle on an otherwise sad day/quote]


-MagnuS
(P.S. needz to learn to pic up like teh A_B)
Attachments: dave.JPG (33.0 KB)


getout87


Jun 26, 2008, 5:02 AM
Post #16 of 79 (6444 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 597

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Wow, incredible is the amount of sense that you don't make.


spacemonkey07


Jun 26, 2008, 5:06 AM
Post #17 of 79 (6442 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 68

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall


c4c


Jun 26, 2008, 5:14 AM
Post #18 of 79 (6434 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279

Re: [spacemonkey07] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

You should be most worried about the knot in the end of the rope, that is left in there forever, weakening the rope, more than the biner or belay loop.


colatownkid


Jun 26, 2008, 5:56 AM
Post #19 of 79 (6405 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 512

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

um...

the reason you don't tie into your belay loop is not because it isn't strong enough.

(just for reference, since this particular thread seems to be about blowing bull shit out of our noses and calling it breathing, you might want to read this: http://www.bdel.com/...ch_harness%20WEB.pdf)

you'll find that harness manufacturers typically send out their gear with INSTRUCTIONS on how to use them. if you were to read the above, you would find that in the case of this particular, common harness, the belay loop is rated to 15kN, which is greater than the maximum theoretical force sustained in a lead fall. (i can post an explicit reference if you'd like, or you can take it on faith that this information is deep in the annals of John Long's Anchors, 2nd ed.)

perhaps another compelling reason to not tie-in to the belay loop is the fact that THIS IS WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS TO DO. if you were to read the above documentation, you would also discover that the manufacturer states that the belay loop is to be used for belay devices only.

an interesting aside: the manufacturer also states that in rescue situations, a locking carabiner can be clipped directly into the belay loop. but wait, i thought the belay loop wasn't strong enough for these "dynamic" forces?!

so why do we only tie in to the tie-in points and belay from the belay loop then, if you could just as easily tie in to the belay loop?

1. clipping in like at the gym mentioned by the OP leads to complacency.

2. it's one more failure point in the system (and i'm not talking about the belay loop. your body will snap before that thing will. i'm talking about a potentially unlocked, cross-loaded carabiner, that might not be made of steel.)

3. it's more organized. all of your ropes are attached to your tie-ins, all of your hardware/belay devices to your belay loop. better organized means less chance of a fatal clusterfuck.

4. it is less wear on the belay loop. software-on-software causes more wear than hardware-on-software (all things being equal. don't spew on me about some sharp carabiner, etc.) why is this important? because when you clip an atc in to the belay loop, it's a single attachment point that could fail. it would be nice if it were in the best condition possible to avoid this unpleasant (and rather unlikely) eventuality.

(ps. if anyone yells todd skinner i may smack them. the wings didn't fall off the airplane, the pilot made an error. please note: no offense to todd skinner. i'm just saying this is an apples-and-oranges thing and that the circumstances surrounding his incident are not reason to lose faith in the belay loop.)


GeneralBenson


Jun 26, 2008, 5:57 AM
Post #20 of 79 (6402 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 270

Re: [spacemonkey07] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

spacemonkey07 wrote:
My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

Are you serious? How about the fact that belay loops are only designed for hard good connection, and the rope on nylon friction will trash your belay loop?


Carnage


Jun 26, 2008, 6:22 AM
Post #21 of 79 (6391 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 27, 2007
Posts: 923

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

you should prolly i dunno... look at your harness. notice how the belay loop is made up of just webbing. Notice the tie in points are made up of webbing surrounded in burly shit.

now go get some of your old kernmantle ropes and some old webbing and rub em together for a while. Let me know what happens. oh and after that, go do the same w/ the webbing wrapped in burly shit.

and just for good measure try rubbing webbing w/ a biner.

Pls make us a table and tell us where we should tie in and where its ok to clip biners. Thanks for your hard work.


shockabuku


Jun 26, 2008, 6:34 AM
Post #22 of 79 (6382 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4862

Re: [laanguiano] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Yes. A very well run gym I climbed at in New Mexico has steel autolockers with permanently affixed gri-gris for their easier top rope belays in what is basically the beginner area. Other parts of the gym have just the rope for some TR climbs and lead climbs you bring your own rope and use a figure 8 tie in.

I think the steel auto-lockers are predominantly there for use with the birthday party and infrequent climber crowd. They work fine, cause very little wear on the belay loop (smooth steel on nylon), and the opportunity for user error is minimized.

If you don't like it, don't TR.


lena_chita
Moderator

Jun 26, 2008, 6:38 AM
Post #23 of 79 (6376 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5705

Re: [bigwhitej] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Have you ever seen harnesses with JUST ONE LOOP?

You know, the harnesses the gyms typically use for rentals b/c they have more size-adjustablility?

On those harnesses you TIE IN AND BELAY from the same loop of reinforced webbing.

Or maybe you have heard of alpine harnesses? they don't have a "belay loop".

Rest assured, both are perfectly safe.



The bottom line: a standard sport/trad harness comes with a belay loop for belaiyng, and the manufacturers recommend tying your figure 8 through two loops, not through the belay loop-- a recommendation you should follow.

HOWEVER, it is perfectly safe to tie in to the belay loop if you are inclined to do so on some occasions. It is also perfectly safe to clip a figure-8-on-a-bight to your belay loop via a locking 'biner and climb that way. It introduces an unnecessary extra link into the system, and that 'biner can be annoying, but it is a standard practice in many gyms.


getout87


Jun 26, 2008, 6:43 AM
Post #24 of 79 (6366 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 597

Re: [lena_chita] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

lena_chita wrote:
bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Have you ever seen harnesses with JUST ONE LOOP?

You know, the harnesses the gyms typically use for rentals b/c they have more size-adjustablility?

On those harnesses you TIE IN AND BELAY from the same loop of reinforced webbing.

Or maybe you have heard of alpine harnesses? they don't have a "belay loop".

Rest assured, both are perfectly safe.



The bottom line: a standard sport/trad harness comes with a belay loop for belaiyng, and the manufacturers recommend tying your figure 8 through two loops, not through the belay loop-- a recommendation you should follow.

HOWEVER, it is perfectly safe to tie in to the belay loop if you are inclined to do so on some occasions. It is also perfectly safe to clip a figure-8-on-a-bight to your belay loop via a locking 'biner and climb that way. It introduces an unnecessary extra link into the system, and that 'biner can be annoying, but it is a standard practice in many gyms.

Yup, I agree. I most always tie in with a fig 8 (or a double bowline if I'm feeling froggy) through the tie in points, but if I'm in the gym doing quick laps with a partner, using a fig 8 on a bight and a locking biner through the belay loop makes the switch much quicker, which is the only reason I use it.

I prefer to use the tie in points as specified by the harness manufacturers, but using a locking biner on the belay loop doesnt worry me, as those things are super burly strong.


stymingersfink


Jun 26, 2008, 8:04 AM
Post #25 of 79 (6311 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250

Re: [colatownkid] Clipping into Belay Loop!! [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

colatownkid wrote:
bigwhitej wrote:
Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

um...

the reason you don't tie into your belay loop is not because it isn't strong enough.

(just for reference, since this particular thread seems to be about blowing bull shit out of our noses and calling it breathing, you might want to read this: http://www.bdel.com/...ch_harness%20WEB.pdf)

you'll find that harness manufacturers typically send out their gear with INSTRUCTIONS on how to use them. if you were to read the above, you would find that in the case of this particular, common harness, the belay loop is rated to 15kN, which is greater than the maximum theoretical force sustained in a lead fall. (i can post an explicit reference if you'd like, or you can take it on faith that this information is deep in the annals of John Long's Anchors, 2nd ed.)

perhaps another compelling reason to not tie-in to the belay loop is the fact that THIS IS WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS TO DO. if you were to read the above documentation, you would also discover that the manufacturer states that the belay loop is to be used for belay devices only.

an interesting aside: the manufacturer also states that in rescue situations, a locking carabiner can be clipped directly into the belay loop. but wait, i thought the belay loop wasn't strong enough for these "dynamic" forces?!

so why do we only tie in to the tie-in points and belay from the belay loop then, if you could just as easily tie in to the belay loop?

1. clipping in like at the gym mentioned by the OP leads to complacency.

2. it's one more failure point in the system (and i'm not talking about the belay loop. your body will snap before that thing will. i'm talking about a potentially unlocked, cross-loaded carabiner, that might not be made of steel.)

3. it's more organized. all of your ropes are attached to your tie-ins, all of your hardware/belay devices to your belay loop. better organized means less chance of a fatal clusterfuck.

4. it is less wear on the belay loop. software-on-software causes more wear than hardware-on-software (all things being equal. don't spew on me about some sharp carabiner, etc.) why is this important? because when you clip an atc in to the belay loop, it's a single attachment point that could fail. it would be nice if it were in the best condition possible to avoid this unpleasant (and rather unlikely) eventuality.

(ps. if anyone yells todd skinner i may smack them. the wings didn't fall off the airplane, the pilot made an error. please note: no offense to todd skinner. i'm just saying this is an apples-and-oranges thing and that the circumstances surrounding his incident are not reason to lose faith in the belay loop.)
^^I'm not reading that.Crazy

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Indoor Gyms

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook