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Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch
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Lazlo


Jun 29, 2008, 7:30 AM
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Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch
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I love the idea behind this knot. At first glance it seems to be extremely versatile, but it's quite a specialty knot. What are some quality uses that anyone has found for the Garda?


sungam


Jun 29, 2008, 8:11 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Well, I find it's a good place to lay back and to relax, perhaps crack a few cold ones, and sometimes roast up a BBQ. Though I also use it to practice bar flair and the fix my bike.
The garden is indeed a versatile knot.

I'm sorry, that was weak.


pornstarr


Jun 29, 2008, 8:57 AM
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Re: [sungam] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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slackline (ie: tight line).


Lazlo


Jun 29, 2008, 9:26 AM
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Re: [pornstarr] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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You'd use the Garda on webbing?


bkalaska


Jun 29, 2008, 11:01 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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I learned it while ascending out of a crevasse that we explored while studying glaciers. Don't rely on it only, but it makes for a fast ascent on the foot side with a prussik on your harness. Also a neat rope trick for parties.


axelvanettinger


Jun 29, 2008, 11:45 AM
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Re: [bkalaska] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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It's a common Canyoning and speleo knot here in Europe mostly used when you don't have an ascender for some reason


irregularpanda


Jun 29, 2008, 1:09 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
I love the idea behind this knot. At first glance it seems to be extremely versatile, but it's quite a specialty knot. What are some quality uses that anyone has found for the Garda?

Hauling, slack line, Hauling, Ascending, Hauling. In that order. Not for TR belay. Ever.


swaghole


Jun 29, 2008, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
I love the idea behind this knot. At first glance it seems to be extremely versatile, but it's quite a specialty knot. What are some quality uses that anyone has found for the Garda?

It's great for use as a progess capture device when setting up a pulley system. Since it only requires 2 biners, you should always have the gear to set it up. I prefer the C & F Hitch which also uses 2 biner. It's easier to feed rope through and has a much more postive feel when it clamps down on the rope. Also, the C & F is safer - with the Garda, if the biners move, it can cause the load to release. You don't get that with the C & F.


Lazlo


Jun 29, 2008, 9:59 PM
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Re: [swaghole] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Could you explain the C & F?


swaghole


Jun 30, 2008, 2:53 AM
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Lazlo wrote:
Could you explain the C & F?

Some pics should explain it pretty well. Use lockers!

http://img180.imagevenue.com/...100_2829_122_2lo.jpg



http://img21.imagevenue.com/...0_2832_122_880lo.jpg


http://img40.imagevenue.com/..._2830_122_1199lo.jpg


http://img196.imagevenue.com/...0_2831_122_202lo.jpg



Lazlo


Jun 30, 2008, 6:34 AM
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Sweet! I have a new knot to mess around with


jeremy11


Jul 1, 2008, 2:32 PM
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Re: [swaghole] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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that C & F looks sweet, and looks like it works exactly like an autoblock belay device. Do you know if conclusive testing has been done on it to see if it would qualify for autoblock belaying? If it did, that would be a nice weight saver for backcountry and alpine - munter hitch for the leader, C & F for the second, biner brake rappel.
Of course, I will not just go out and start belaying with this... but if this could be tested to autoblock belay standards, it would be amazing.


jeremy11


Jul 1, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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so, I just played with the C & F, and it is superior to the garda hitch, but NOT OF AUTOBLOCKING SECURITY! the sideways carabiner can be twisted to totally undo the hitch into a mere loop around the main carabiner.

I've used the Garda for an ascender, but prefer it attached directly to my harness, then the foot loop prussik goes above the harness-Garda. This way the prussik is always moved up a loaded rope. It is rigged just like the Grigri Frog method that is great for cleaning aid pitches, just less efficient.

Progress capture in a hauling system can also be accomplished by using an atc as a prussik minding pulley as shown here:



the article is on the DMM Revolver, but the tech tips at the bottom are great even for those of us (myself included) without them.

http://www.planetfear.com/..._detail.asp?a_id=330


swaghole


Jul 1, 2008, 6:23 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
that C & F looks sweet, and looks like it works exactly like an autoblock belay device. Do you know if conclusive testing has been done on it to see if it would qualify for autoblock belaying? If it did, that would be a nice weight saver for backcountry and alpine - munter hitch for the leader, C & F for the second, biner brake rappel.
Of course, I will not just go out and start belaying with this... but if this could be tested to autoblock belay standards, it would be amazing.

I think you are mistaking how the C & F should be used. It's a PROGRESS CAPTURE method used for hauls and rescue. It's not an autobloc belay. However, it can be easily converted into a 'carabiner wrap' belay, another advantage over the Garda.


zoltank


Jul 2, 2008, 5:39 AM
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Re: [jeremy11] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
Progress capture in a hauling system can also be accomplished by using an atc as a prussik minding pulley as shown here:

[image]http://www.planetfear.com/includes/images/uploaded/Revolver-image.jpg[/image]

in the picture, why not just use the reverso in auto block mode as the progress capture? Simpler, faster, and fewer parts.


jeremy11


Jul 2, 2008, 7:36 AM
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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zoltank wrote:
jeremy11 wrote:
Progress capture in a hauling system can also be accomplished by using an atc as a prussik minding pulley as shown here:

[image]http://www.planetfear.com/includes/images/uploaded/Revolver-image.jpg[/image]

in the picture, why not just use the reverso in auto block mode as the progress capture? Simpler, faster, and fewer parts.

but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.


jeremy11


Jul 2, 2008, 7:42 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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I know, read my first post more carefully, then read my second post. Wink


swaghole


Jul 2, 2008, 7:48 AM
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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zoltank wrote:
jeremy11 wrote:
Progress capture in a hauling system can also be accomplished by using an atc as a prussik minding pulley as shown here:

[image]http://www.planetfear.com/includes/images/uploaded/Revolver-image.jpg[/image]

in the picture, why not just use the reverso in auto block mode as the progress capture? Simpler, faster, and fewer parts.

Yes - you are right. That image is way to complicated, bordering on the clusterfcku.


(This post was edited by swaghole on Jul 2, 2008, 7:51 AM)


zoltank


Jul 3, 2008, 6:42 AM
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Re: [jeremy11] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.

Why do you need a prussik on there when using a reverso or guide in autoblock mode? There's nothing in the manufacturer's literature about having to back it up like that.


Partner epoch
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Jul 3, 2008, 7:19 AM
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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zoltank wrote:
jeremy11 wrote:
but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.


Why do you need a prussik on there when using a reverso or guide in autoblock mode? There's nothing in the manufacturer's literature about having to back it up like that.
Zoltank, are you even paying attention to this entire thread? Your response makes me question your comprehension skills.



I think what jeremy11 was trying to illustrate was that by NOT using a reverso/ATCGuide in autoblock mode it is possible to set up a haul system. How many of you have tried to haul a full pitch? While the auto-locking belay device would keep you from needing to add a prusick, it would also introduce a significant amount of friction into a system.

Ususally we belay with these devices by feeding slack through as we pull. In a haul situation where a 2:1 or 3:1 redirect would be necessary, a person hauling probably would not be able to feed slack through the auto-locker as they pulled.

From personal experience, just the weight of the rope alone is nearly impossible to pull through my Reverso when a second is just starting out on a 190' pitch. I weigh a tad over 200 lbs. So, configuring your device as shown in the above illustration reduces enough friction to make the method viable - regardless if you are using a Revolver or a regular locking caribiner.


(This post was edited by epoch on Jul 3, 2008, 10:25 AM)


zoltank


Jul 3, 2008, 7:35 AM
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Re: [epoch] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
Zoltank, are you even paying attention to this entire thread? Your response makes me question your comprehension skills.

Yes I am, thank you. From what jeremy11 wrote it sounded like whenever you're using a autoblocking plate, whether in a hauling system or not, it should be backed up with a prussik. I was asking why.

My own personal experience, yes, I've hauled up a person before using an autoblocker as my progress capture in a 3:1 without issues since you're essentially feeding in slack and pulling rope through in the same motion.


Partner epoch
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Jul 3, 2008, 7:42 AM
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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zoltank wrote:
epoch wrote:
Zoltank, are you even paying attention to this entire thread? Your response makes me question your comprehension skills.

Yes I am, thank you. From what jeremy11 wrote it sounded like whenever you're using a autoblocking plate, whether in a hauling system or not, it should be backed up with a prussik. I was asking why.

My own personal experience, yes, I've hauled up a person before using an autoblocker as my progress capture in a 3:1 without issues since you're essentially feeding in slack and pulling rope through in the same motion.
I didn't read it as always needing a prusick on an auto-locker. Now if the image wasn't posted previously I would be confused, but that is not how I read it.

Pertaining to your haul, have you ever done a 3:1 or a 2:1 for an entire rope length?


zoltank


Jul 3, 2008, 7:51 AM
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Re: [epoch] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
I didn't read it as always needing a prusick on an auto-locker. Now if the image wasn't posted previously I would be confused, but that is not how I read it.

Pertaining to your haul, have you ever done a 3:1 or a 2:1 for an entire rope length?

Even in a hauling system, should I be backing up my autoblocker? I honestly want to know.

An entire rope length? No, it was about 60 feet. But with my ascender only 6 feet below my guide, on the load side the guide was only having to deal with weight of 6 feet of rope and no weight from the climber while hauling, so no, I didn't really have any problems from friction.


joeforte


Jul 3, 2008, 8:38 AM
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Dude, he's not talking about backing up and autoblocker! The hauling system he pictured is not set up in autoblock mode. I think you could actually use a standard ATC in place of the reverso... Any thoughts?


zoltank


Jul 3, 2008, 8:45 AM
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Re: [joeforte] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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joeforte wrote:
Dude, he's not talking about backing up and autoblocker! The hauling system he pictured is not set up in autoblock mode. I think you could actually use a standard ATC in place of the reverso... Any thoughts?

Dude, I know! If you read back, when I brought up just using the reverso in autoblock mode he said a prussik should be used then as well.

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