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kevinhansen
Jun 25, 2008, 4:19 PM
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When I discovered the continuous loop method, with tagging, then tried it, I realized it was revolutionary. I think its the best way I've seen yet of doing things. Now lets step it up a notch.
I want it all.
I want to tag, I want to body haul, I want to continuous loop, and I want to do it with only two ropes. One rope is a 70 meter thin line that works real well with the silent partner and I'd rather not (infact I won't) jumar on the lead line. The other rope is a work horse thats 122 meters long.
I've got it 90 % figured out, yet I don't want to bias the think tank.
Kevin
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lambone
Jun 25, 2008, 6:18 PM
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Curious how you plan to clean the pitch if you don't jumar the lead line and the pitch traverses or is overhanging?
(This post was edited by lambone on Jun 25, 2008, 6:21 PM)
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stymingersfink
Jun 25, 2008, 7:19 PM
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lambone wrote: Curious how you plan to clean the pitch if you don't jumar the lead line and the pitch traverses or is overhanging?
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doz
Jun 26, 2008, 3:37 AM
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Apparently the last 10% not yet figured out, is how clean?!
details, details, details
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ptlong
Jun 26, 2008, 11:44 PM
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Is the "continuous loop method" just where you tie the haul and lead lines together so you don't have the haul line on your butt while you climb?
Is that it??
I've never understood that PTPP diagram with the crab.
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kevinhansen
Jun 28, 2008, 5:10 PM
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ptlong wrote: haul and lead lines together so you don't have the haul line on your butt while you climb? Isn't it?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...;;page=unread#unread
Getting about ready to post some solutions to the two rope method, but I want more of your ideas.
Kevin
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ptlong
Jun 30, 2008, 4:51 PM
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I've tried reading through that stuff before, thank you.
So does "continuous loop" also imply tagging? That's never been clear to me.
I'm light and have never done a route that I thought required tagging. Even with a partner I prefer to just shoulder the whole load, minus obviously unneeded items. I guess once I had to call down for the hammer and a few pins. One tag in about 15 ascents.
PTPP:
"I'm a weakling."
"I'm far too lazy."
"[the continuous loop method] is not a panacea"
"the system is also extremely complex and time-consuming - it is not the faster way, that's for sure"
It sounds like a preference for comfort over speed, which is fine. I personally aim to be as time efficient as I can when I'm climbing. But maybe your system accomplishes both simultaneously? It will be interesting to see.
If nothing else I'm also curious how you clean overhanging and traversing pitches without jugging your lead line.
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kevinhansen
Jul 1, 2008, 5:21 PM
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ptlong wrote: It sounds like a preference for comfort over speed, which is fine. I personally aim to be as time efficient as I can when I'm climbing. But maybe your system accomplishes both simultaneously? It will be interesting to see.
Maybe I dug a hole for myself. I don't have a system completely figured out yet, that's why I'm asking for imput. I'm still working on a system and in order to present it, I'll have to draw a big picture of it like PTPP did. I've got two solutions for how to clean. One is practicle and the other is less than ideal.
I'm still open to your ideas of soltions.
I've got 1 rope @ 70 meters and another @ 122 meters(which is like having a second and third rope that are 60 meters each).
kevin
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lambone
Jul 2, 2008, 3:43 PM
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The "continous loop," as described by Pete, does not really exist...and is kind of a stupid name for the technique.
For the loop to be truly continous, you'd need just one rope looped through the anchor with both ends tied to your harness. This technique has been used for speed claimbing, I think Aaron aka KFC used it for speed soloing Zodiac. He climbs up then just unties and pulls the rope through like an upsideown rappel. No going back down to the bottom of the pitch. Of course this means no, or minimal pro on the pitch, and only if you put leaver biners on fixed gear. Scary!
The method detailed in that crazy drawing is not at all continous because one end of your loop is tied to the haulbag, and one is tied to the anchor. I think that drawing is overly complex and begging for trouble. I may be wrong but I think you'd be better off keeping your lead/main haul line independant from your tag system.
If I were to incorporate solo tagging into the syestem I think I would would use a third skiny haul line for the tag bag. I'd also use some of the techniques described in the "solo haul" thread.
If your tag line was thick enough to rap on (8mil minimum), you could do a simo rap/haul, if you rig your haulbag properly. Personally I prefer to incorporate my haulbag into the belay system for extra dynamic properties. I think this adds an extra margin of saftey by softening your catch. Of course you can't use the "pig belay" and rap/haul, because you wouldn't want to fall on a haulbag just attached with a fifi. Rap hauling may save some time, but I'll take a safer catch when I'm up there, thank you.
As far as not jugging the lead line to clean. That is just foolish and impractical on anything but a nearly straight vertical pitch. Anyone whose done El Cap knows that these pitches are few and far between. More often then not the pitch traverses or is overhanging at some point. Trying to clean this on rappel can be tricky if not impossible. If you are truly claming that you "will not" jug the lead line, then you are really limiting your options up there. Sure maybe there is a time and place for some cleaning on rappel, but surely not every time.
Also the way I see it, it's faster to just clean by jugging your lead line....unless you can jug a whole rope length without stopping to catch your breath. If you can, I want you on my team! By cleaning on the lead line you give yourself a chance to chill and breath when you are cleaning the pro. If you clean on rap you take time to pull each piece on rap, then you jug a free hanging rope and will inevitably have to rest on the way up, so you are effectively adding MORE time to the whole process.
The one other thing is I really hate jugging free lines unless they are clear from edges all the way to anchor. If the rope isn't clear I'd prefer to jug the lead line which is led through pro and will stretch and bounce less.
The bottom line is that if you are truly getting into bigwall soloing, you need to fill your bag with all the tricks..and be able to distinguish which circumstances call for the use of one trick over another. Don't limit yourself by limiting your options.
my 2 cents
(This post was edited by lambone on Jul 2, 2008, 4:18 PM)
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kevinhansen
Jul 2, 2008, 6:35 PM
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lambone wrote: Personally I prefer to incorporate my haulbag into the belay system for extra dynamic properties. I think this adds an extra margin of saftey by softening your catch.
Me too for the same reasons.
lambone wrote: Of course you can't use the "pig belay" and rap/haul, because you wouldn't want to fall on a haulbag just attached with a fifi.
lambone wrote: If you are truly claming that you "will not" jug the lead line, then you are really limiting your options up there. Sure maybe there is a time and place for some cleaning on rappel, but surely not every time. Also the way I see it, it's faster to just clean by jugging your lead line. The bottom line is that if you are truly getting into bigwall soloing, you need to fill your bag with all the tricks..and be able to distinguish which circumstances call for the use of one trick over another. Don't limit yourself by limiting your options.
Too right. And I've BW soloed before, just using different methods.
The reasons why I'd rather not jug on the lead line are;
1) its brand new and want to keep it that way,
2) its a skinney 9.4 petzal Fuse,
3) its dry treatment works so well in the Silent partner,
4) lastly I'd crap myself jugging on such a thin line.
SOLUTION?
What if I cliped an additional biner each piece? Thus making a chain two biners long.. The skinney lead line goes into one biner and the work horse fat line (clean line) into the second biner. (I guess I wouldn't need to clip the cleaning line into every piece, just the ones at the top of a few plumb placements and at the begining/throughout of each traverse/roof.
Naturaly I'd need to occasionaly rebelay the lead line with a slip knot, and I'd need to reblay the clean line with a klemheist where needed as well. But I think it could work.
A special thanks to lambone for that last post. I'd like more of the same.
Kevin
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TheTeacher
Jul 2, 2008, 7:00 PM
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kevinhansen wrote: lambone wrote: This technique has been used for speed claimbing, I think Aaron aka KFC used it for speed soloing Zodiac. He climbs up then just unties and pulls the rope through like an upsideown rappel. What if I cliped an additional biner into each piece? Thus making a chain two biners long.. The skinney lead line goes into one biner and the work horse fat line (clean line) into the second biner. (I guess I wouldn't need to clip the cleaning line into every piece, just the ones at the top of a few plumb placements and at the begining/throughout of each traverse/roof. Naturaly I'd need to occasionaly rebelay the lead line with a slip knot, and I'd need to reblay the clean line with a klemheist where needed as well. But I think it could work.
What if you did your 2 biner chain idea then at the top of the pitch you "fell" at the anchor, (in effect untieing all your rebelayed slip knots), your lead line would run continuously down to the pig. You could then untie and unthread the lead line and reuse it to rap down during your body haul/rap.
The trick is unthreading it from the bottom while your at the top. You couldn't anchor the lead line to the pig or the the anchor. What if it was double fishermaned through the pig to a tag line (3rd line)?
Hmmmm its a good one to think on. Give me some time.
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ptlong
Jul 2, 2008, 7:20 PM
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Doesn't PTPP use the slippery knot as a backup to a fifi? If you hang your pigs on that knot I'll betcha you can't pull it loose when the time comes 2-3 pitches and 122 meters later.
Self-lowerout via preset friction at the belay? That sounds like a fantasy. It could work but it could also fail or get hopelessly tangled.
Whatcha going to do if the bag gets stuck at the belay or during the haul, downjug your loaded 122m line?
Jugging the haul line: Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just buy yourself a new lead line more frequently?
I really can't figure out why you're so fearful of jugging a 9.4mm rope but don't seem to be too concerned about whipping on one or using one in a self belay device that isn't rated for ropes that thin.
Kevin, I think it's great that you're investing the effort to try and think of innovative solutions. Good luck and test your ideas out in a safe place.
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kevinhansen
Jul 2, 2008, 7:58 PM
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ptlong wrote: I really can't figure out why you're so fearful of jugging a 9.4mm rope but don't seem to be too concerned about whipping on one or using one in a self belay device that isn't rated for ropes that thin..
And so it begins. ;-)
You your self found that the Silent partner was rated for ropes from 11mm to 9.8mm. I'd like to see anyone get an 11mm to slide in the thing. The reason I went with the 9.4 is I found this post from the guy that designed the thing. "Bilnny" was his handel.
http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=590987#msg590987
DON'T GIVE ME QUESTIONS, GIVE ME ANSWERS!
Good to know that the slip know thing was for backing up the fifi and not the main deal. I didn't know that. I guess I'll have to get off the couch and test a realistic pig hanging on slip knots.
kevin
Keep it coming.
(This post was edited by kevinhansen on Jul 2, 2008, 9:47 PM)
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stymingersfink
Jul 2, 2008, 8:28 PM
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kevinhansen wrote: ptlong wrote: I really can't figure out why you're so fearful of jugging a 9.4mm rope but don't seem to be too concerned about whipping on one or using one in a self belay device that isn't rated for ropes that thin.. And so it begins. ;-) You your self found that the Silent partner was rated for ropes from 11mm to 9.8mm. I'd like to see anyone get an 11mm to slide in the thing. The reason I went with the 9.4 is I found this post from the guy that designed the thing. "Bilnny" was his handel. http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=590987#msg590987 GIVE ME ANSWERS NOT PROBLEMS! Good to know that the slip know thing was for backing up the fifi and not the main deal. I didn't know that. I guess I'll have to get off the couch and test a realistic pig hanging on slip knots. kevin Keep it coming.
Sure, but pay attention this time, because it's already been said a million times (but I'll say it again.)
Ditch the silent partner (it makes a better free-climbing solo device anyway) and solo-lead on a 10.2mm threaded properly through a grigri (then backed-up to a locker of the belay loop). Simple.
Why do you feel the need to overly complicate things, especially given that wall-climbing serious routes is complicated enough to begin with?
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ptlong
Jul 2, 2008, 8:32 PM
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On Supertopo, 'blinny' wrote: Fer cry-y-y-y-y-y-y-ying out loud. . . read my post about Shipley running a 9 mil through his. . . trust me, the SP'll work with it - but why in the Sam Hill would you LEAD ON A 9 mil? ?
Thanks, that's interesting to read about the SP and skinny ropes.
You didn't really answer the question (mine or blinny's).
But since you're not interested in questions I'll skip any further critique and just wait to see what you got.
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kevinhansen
Jul 2, 2008, 9:33 PM
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([{To all you lurkers out there and to those who just tuned in this is what's known as a thread jack. Let the rant commence}])
I find it hard to believe that a solid company like Petzl would make a thin line like the Fuse 9.4 that can hold 6 falls (keep in mind they were FF2 type falls and were 6 right after one another) and not expect people to lead on it. Wouldn't there be something somewhere that would say "Not for lead climbing"?
Remember its a competitive world out there and companies are vieing for who has the safest, lightest, and most durrable rope. I bet with in 15 years lead lines will shrink to 5-6MM and will withstand 10 UIAA falls and have 3X the life span that todays ropes have. Don't believe me? Look how far we've (they have) come in the last 40 years. ({[brace for low blow}]) You're not still tieing a boline around your waste with a braded hemp line are you? ({[I don't care where you're from that had to hurt}]).
BUT 15 years from now some young punk will ask if the 5-6MM line work in a SP3 (the third generation of Silent Partner) and I'll say "Sure it will catch, But why on Sam's Hill would you want to lead on that dental floss!!"
I rest...
I did very little solo aiding on a Grigri before the SP came along. I guess I just went with the SP because it was a new toy. Maybe I was too hasty to change systems and never gave the Grigri belay full evaluation? I think I'll give a pitch or two a try with both and see which I like better.
Good point.
Kevin
Did you catch what movie my quote was from?
"Don't give me questions, give me answers!"
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TheTeacher
Jul 2, 2008, 9:40 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: Why do you feel the need to overly complicate things, especially given that wall-climbing serious routes is complicated enough to begin with?
I can't speak for Kevin, but I think his goal with the two rope method is to keep it simple.
Honsetly Kevin,
I don't think its doable. Not that you should quit, but to Tag, Body Haul, lead, and clean all using two ropes, even if one is crazy long, just isn't going to happen.
I hope I'm wrong on this one.
Your movie quote is from Madagascar. The captin of the penguins is slapping the private.
(This post was edited by TheTeacher on Jul 2, 2008, 9:43 PM)
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lambone
Jul 3, 2008, 1:10 AM
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Kevin,
RE: Pig Belay and Rap Hauling
I wouldn't use a pig belay on a fifi set up for rap hauling...even with a slippery overhand knot backup.
Maybe it's a stretch to say...unless you want to DIE, your fified pig should be on a seperate anchor from your main powerpoint.Call me crazy but if I might whip on that pig I want a hard back up, not a slipknot.
Doing the rap/haul thing may save some time (what 20 minutes it takes to do a standard haul?), but overall I don't think it's worth the risk. The slippery isn't a knot I want to put to the test whilst taking whippers.
Try it.... when a slippery overhand is weighted hard from the pig side, it sort of pulls the knot up and through the biner. It probly holds still, but looks funky, like it might become jamed when you try to free it from above. Or it might just come undone in a hard fall, who knows...stranger things have been known to happen on El Cap then a slipknot coming untied.
RE: 2 biners and two ropes on each piece...
Ummmm...I'm not 100% sure I understand this idea or it's point. Can you imagine both ropes catching your fall on one peice, with one tied to the back of your harness. Plus the extra drag of two ropes through each piece, god forbid you need to step out of the aiders for a bit (which you often realize you have to do because Supertaco didn't mention the mandetory free bit).
Why do you want to carry 3 ropes anyway? Seems like by trying to save your pretty 9 mil that isn't made for wall climbing anyway, you are carrying an extra "Workhose line." Why not just lead on the workhorse and get rid of the extra 9.4mil?
Have you tried it? Do you know how heavy three ropes are off your harness? SUXOR!
RE: Belay Device
Ditch the silent partner and stick with a gri-gri and one fat chord. There is a reason all the active wall soloers use this method....it works.
(This post was edited by lambone on Jul 3, 2008, 1:24 AM)
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kevinhansen
Jul 3, 2008, 8:57 PM
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lambone wrote: Kevin, RE: Pig Belay and Rap Hauling I wouldn't use a pig belay on a fifi set up for rap hauling...even with a slippery overhand knot backup. Maybe it's a stretch to say...unless you want to DIE, your fified pig should be on a seperate anchor from your main powerpoint. Call me crazy but if I might whip on that pig I want a hard back up, not a slipknot. Doing the rap/haul thing may save some time (what 20 minutes it takes to do a standard haul?).
lambone wrote: but overall I don't think it's worth the risk. The slippery isn't a knot I want to put to the test whilst taking whippers. Try it.... when a slippery overhand is weighted hard from the pig side, it sort of pulls the knot up and through the biner. It probly holds still, but looks funky, like it might become jamed when you try to free it from above. Or it might just come undone in a hard fall, who knows...stranger things have been known to happen on El Cap then a slipknot coming untied.
Good work Shaggy. You almost have me sold on ditching the idea. Its nice to be 100% certain things are safe. However I'm not one to take whippers, at all, ever. A3 -A5 doesn't exactly do it for me. I get puckered enough as it is on C2.
Maybe there could be a reason to have this thing built after all..
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ase_idea_100166.html
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TheTeacher
Jul 4, 2008, 3:26 PM
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lambone wrote: kevinhansen wrote: However I'm not one to take whippers, at all, ever. Alright, well good luck with that... 
When I think of a whipper, 20+ foot falls come to mind. Rarly has this happened to me on aid. Sure a piece has failed and I fall 5 feet onto the last placement, but i've yet to zipper more than 2 pieces. And thats my goal, not to fall, and if it happens not to zipper.
I tried Kevin's 2 biner chain idea on 1 pitch last night. It worked fine. However I think you'd be better off jugging the lead line rather than redundantly clipping two ropes when it's not needed.
Get a solid lead line and jug it.
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thorgon
Jul 17, 2008, 10:42 PM
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Just get a reliable Bigwall partner, it is the safest approach to the problem!
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thorgon
Jul 17, 2008, 10:47 PM
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What is wrong with the clove hitch, backed up with a figure 8, always worked for me? Or if you want to spend the dough, a Soloaid..??
Thor
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