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jsj7051
Jul 17, 2008, 2:09 AM
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I did do a search on this but didn,t find the answer. Question : Is over camming a bad thing? I read the threads on friction and lobes and surface area etc. , I just would like a laymans answer from some long time climbers. I climb most in NC but do go to New River in WV some . Thanks
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fulton
Jul 17, 2008, 2:21 AM
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Yes over camming is bad. For one thing it makes it very difficult if not unlikely that you will be able to remove your cam.
For another thing, some cams have constant cam angles and some have progressive cam angles. Over camming a constant cam angled cam  will not effect its pull out rating, but it could reduce the pull out rating for a progressive cam angled cam 
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glytch
Jul 17, 2008, 2:21 AM
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It's a bad thing for 2 reasons:
1) too overcammed, and you may find that you've made a pricey donation to the rock.
2) If it gets stuck in a certain position, say, so overcammed that it can't rotate and the stem is pointing straight out of a vertical crack, a fall on that piece will place substantial torque on the lobes and end up loading the axle and lobes in strange ways. In the same way that a link cam broke a while back when it was restricted from rotating, a cam that is unable to rotate because it's way overcammed will also be in a compromising position.
That said, if the cam is overcammed but not so severely that you can't get it out, and it's already oriented in the direction of loading, well, it's not a huge issue.
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glytch
Jul 17, 2008, 2:23 AM
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what cams on the market now have progressive cam angles? I thought even max cams and link cams have a constant cam angle....
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fulton
Jul 17, 2008, 2:28 AM
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I don't know, I kind of made the whole thing up
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jsj7051
Jul 17, 2008, 2:33 AM
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glytch wrote: It's a bad thing for 2 reasons: 1) too overcammed, and you may find that you've made a pricey donation to the rock. 2) If it gets stuck in a certain position, say, so overcammed that it can't rotate and the stem is pointing straight out of a vertical crack, a fall on that piece will place substantial torque on the lobes and end up loading the axle and lobes in strange ways. In the same way that a link cam broke a while back when it was restricted from rotating, a cam that is unable to rotate because it's way overcammed will also be in a compromising position. That said, if the cam is overcammed but not so severely that you can't get it out, and it's already oriented in the direction of loading, well, it's not a huge issue.
Had already seen the effects of you'r 1 and 2 answer, You'r last comment is the type answer I was trying to find. So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large?
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glytch
Jul 17, 2008, 2:38 AM
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jsj7051 wrote: Had already seen the effects of you'r 1 and 2 answer, You'r last comment is the type answer I was trying to find. So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large?
It depends (tm). Generally, I'd say a larger piece will be more secure but much higher likelihood of stuck-ness. A smaller piece, depending on the exact placement (ie. does the crack flare inward making a cam hard to insert?) and the cam's rating (a cam with full strength cam-stops is crucial, here), could be secure...
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jsj7051
Jul 17, 2008, 3:08 AM
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glytch wrote: jsj7051 wrote: Had already seen the effects of you'r 1 and 2 answer, You'r last comment is the type answer I was trying to find. So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large? It depends (tm). Generally, I'd say a larger piece will be more secure but much higher likelihood of stuck-ness. A smaller piece, depending on the exact placement (ie. does the crack flare inward making a cam hard to insert?) and the cam's rating (a cam with full strength cam-stops is crucial, here), could be secure...
What is a full strength cam stop?
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colatownkid
Jul 17, 2008, 3:20 AM
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jsj7051 wrote: What is a full strength cam stop?
a full strength cam stop is the thing that allows a cam to work in "passive" mode. cam stops keep the lobes from inverting. without cam stops, the lobes can flip around completely, kinda the same effect as an umbrella getting turned inside out. however, most cam stops are not rated for full strength and just prevent the cam from flipping, without being able to hold a fall. a cam with "full strength" cam stops can hold a fall in the completely open position. for example, the black diamond camalot has this feature. in theory, the lobes could be retracted, slotted into a pod, allowed to expand completely open, and then fallen on. i don't recommend trying this.
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Carnage
Jul 17, 2008, 1:32 PM
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glytch wrote: what cams on the market now have progressive cam angles? I thought even max cams and link cams have a constant cam angle....
tricams have a changing camming angle. i dont know the number off the top of my head, but search and you can find something about it.
cams on the other hand, all have constant angle.
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8flood8
Jul 17, 2008, 2:34 PM
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this isn't sex! you can't just jam it in there!
... speaking of... wouldn't that suck to get your peen over cammed and stuck...
ouch!
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Carnage
Jul 17, 2008, 3:21 PM
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8flood8 wrote: this isn't sex! you can't just jam it in there! ... speaking of... wouldn't that suck to get your peen over cammed and stuck... ouch!
my penis doesnt work like a camming device at all. if i had to describe it as anything, i would describe it as a jack hammer.
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drfelatio
Jul 17, 2008, 3:36 PM
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Carnage wrote: 8flood8 wrote: this isn't sex! you can't just jam it in there! ... speaking of... wouldn't that suck to get your peen over cammed and stuck... ouch! my penis doesnt work like a camming device at all. if i had to describe it as anything, i would describe it as a jack hammer.
Mine is more like a Big Bro 
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deschamps1000
Jul 17, 2008, 3:43 PM
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jsj7051 wrote: So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large?
Definitely a little too large (so it is overcammed).
Plus, the only time that an overcammed cam stuck in a position unable to rotate is a problem is when you have a rigid stem. With a flexible stem it will hold a fall.
(This post was edited by deschamps1000 on Jul 17, 2008, 3:44 PM)
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scotchie
Jul 17, 2008, 4:07 PM
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jsj7051 wrote: glytch wrote: That said, if the cam is overcammed but not so severely that you can't get it out, and it's already oriented in the direction of loading, well, it's not a huge issue. Had already seen the effects of you'r 1 and 2 answer, You'r last comment is the type answer I was trying to find. So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large?
2 problems with placing overcammed cams:
1. Rope drag could cause it to walk into a placement that is truly overcammed and can't be retrieved (sling it).
2. Falling on a overcammed piece gets it stuck irretrievably, even if it would have been retrievable had you not fallen on it (don't fall).
Losing a cam is still better than dying, which is why I prefer slightly overcammed pieces to silghtly undercammed pieces.
Climbing to the next placement is obviously the best choice for not losing a cam, unless you are pumped, scared, runout, out of rope, or all of the above.
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sspssp
Jul 17, 2008, 8:38 PM
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jsj7051 wrote: glytch wrote: It's a bad thing for 2 reasons: 1) too overcammed, and you may find that you've made a pricey donation to the rock. 2) If it gets stuck in a certain position, say, so overcammed that it can't rotate and the stem is pointing straight out of a vertical crack, a fall on that piece will place substantial torque on the lobes and end up loading the axle and lobes in strange ways. In the same way that a link cam broke a while back when it was restricted from rotating, a cam that is unable to rotate because it's way overcammed will also be in a compromising position. That said, if the cam is overcammed but not so severely that you can't get it out, and it's already oriented in the direction of loading, well, it's not a huge issue. Had already seen the effects of you'r 1 and 2 answer, You'r last comment is the type answer I was trying to find. So , if you are leading and don't have the right cam and you'r going to place a cam , do you place a piece a little too small or one a little too large?
How badly do you want the protection versus how badly do you want to be able to retrieve the cam? If I'm runnout right before the crux, I will take an overplaced cam that I know will hold a fall and take my chances on my second being able to get it out (my second has gotten too much practice at this). If I'm not feeling too desperate about the climbing, I'll consider the underplaced cam.
If you overplace a cam, if you keep the cam close to the edge of the crack (don't bury it) it can make it easier to clean. This also relates to your trust in placement skills and the desire for a solid placement versus more cleanable.
If you underplace a cam, putting an extended sling on it is highly recommended. Under placed cams more easily shift to bad placements from the effect of rope drag.
An extended sling on an an overplaced cam might reduce the chance of it wriggling (walking) into an impossible to clean placement.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jul 17, 2008, 8:48 PM)
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tolman_paul
Jul 17, 2008, 10:06 PM
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Overcammed placements rock, I just scored a #3 camalot due to someone going to a bunch of trouble to finagle it into a crack where it really didn't belong. More amazing was it was placed while standing on a ledge and really wouldn't have provided any protection if the leader had fallen before reaching the bolt on the slab above.
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irregularpanda
Jul 17, 2008, 10:43 PM
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tolman_paul wrote: Overcammed placements rock
I agree. I found a #1 that had been overcammed, and then walked upwards where the crack was a tid bit wider. This was also like 7 feet of the ground. Remember, overcam all your placements, but tell me where you're going climbing first. Or you could just send me 70 bucks.
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spikeddem
Jul 17, 2008, 10:52 PM
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irregularpanda wrote: tolman_paul wrote: Overcammed placements rock I agree. I found a #1 that had been overcammed, and then walked upwards where the crack was a tid bit wider. This was also like 7 feet of the ground. Remember, overcam all your placements, but tell me where you're going climbing first. Or you could just send me 70 bucks.
Quoted JUST so someone could read the "tell me where you're climbing" joke ONE more time!
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jsj7051
Jul 18, 2008, 1:30 AM
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irregularpanda wrote: tolman_paul wrote: Overcammed placements rock I agree. I found a #1 that had been overcammed, and then walked upwards where the crack was a tid bit wider. This was also like 7 feet of the ground. Remember, overcam all your placements, but tell me where you're going climbing first. Or you could just send me 70 bucks.
Table Rock NC this weekend and the check's in the mail. Remember to hold you'r breath!
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jsj7051
Jul 18, 2008, 1:35 AM
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Thanks everyone for the input , I'll use the info wisley ( hopefully ). Kinda what I thought but needed to hear from more experinced climbers, even the funny guys.
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glytch
Jul 18, 2008, 4:24 PM
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scotchie wrote: 2 problems with placing overcammed cams: 1. Rope drag could cause it to walk into a placement that is truly overcammed and can't be retrieved (sling it). 2. Falling on a overcammed piece gets it stuck irretrievably, even if it would have been retrievable had you not fallen on it (don't fall).
re: 2) If the cam's oriented in the direction of the fall, there's no reason why falling on it should cause it to stick irretrievably - the issue with falling on it is that the fall will likely (forcibly) rotate the cam, causing it to walk further into the crack, which could make it even more overcammed (ie. stuck).
I assumed that's what you meant, but I wanted to be clear for the sake of anyone who didn't: pulling directly on a cam will not cause it to get stuck - it's not a passive device, and there's no reason that a pull perpendicular to the axle of the cam should cause it to stick. A friend once said "I didn't even tug on the cam - why is it stuck?".... that just ain't how it works.
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